In my last post, I was attempting to get Doc and Marilyn and Big Dave to discuss the end of the world, the Mayan calendar and survival. You can read how far we didn‘t get in that attempt. This segment is from a few minutes later in that same conversation, such as it was. 

I was trying to explain to Doc, Marilyn and Big Dave how unsettling it will be, according to all the scare mongers, when the next disaster strikes. I didn’t get too far. 

Tondeleo: OK, Doc, I understand that you don’t want to buy the Mayan calendar. And, like I said, there really isn’t a Mayan calendar for you or anyone else to buy. It just was like a prediction or something… but the point is that there are a lot of people saying that people ought to be ready for a disaster or for a zombie invasion…

Doc: Aint no ZOMBIES gonna invade nobody, Tondy! Don’t get your panties in a bunch…

Marilyn: I ain’t scared of zombies, Tondy! I have anointing oil that I got at the church and I would pour it on them and rebuke them in the name of Jesus! A zombie ain’t nothin’ but a demon livin’ in a corpse. I’d cast that demon out of that zombie and command it go to back to hell and the zombie would just be a dead person again…

Doc: Yeah, one more thing for me to bury around here.

Tondeleo: Well, what about being’ PREPARED, Doc? I read you about the “37 Foods You Must Have in a Disaster.” What do you think about that?

Doc: Well, Tondy, it’s a scam pure an’ simple. There ain’t no secret foods. That guy ain’t got no special secrets. OK: you gotta have water. We got a well, so we’re ok. Then you need to have things you can store. But we live like that anyway. You been out here in the winter. When it snows, ain’t no snowplows comin’ down here. We can’t get to the store.

We have sweet potatoes, regular potatoes, carrots, turnips and such down in the root cellar. They keep as long as you need ‘em. Why it’s called a root cellar.

Then we got salt cured ham and deer jerky. We even got some catfish jerky that Big Dave makes. We’re good for meat. We do that every winter and been doin’ that since I was a boy.

Plus, we got guns and ammo and plenty of deer, rabbits, squirrels and possums. We got fresh meat year round – all we have to go is take a walk in the woods.

When we ain’t got no electricity, we play the acoustic guitars… and Marilyn don’t need no electric to play her harp.

We got blankets and a woodstove, and kerosene lamps. That ain’t no disaster Tondy! It’s how all us live out here! Poor people been livin’ like that since the world began!

And you city boys think it’s the end of the world if you cain’t get your Starbucks and the interweb! You better man up, Tondy!

Big Dave: Well, if it IS the end of the world, you’re not gonna make it anyway. You’ll be dead. The world ended, remember?

Marilyn: The Bible says all this stuff is gonna happen in the last days. Tondy, what you need is the Holy Ghost. Then you wouldn’t be scared all the time. Do you want me to cast that spirit of fear off of you? I can do it if you want…

Tondy: No thank you Marilyn. I’ll be all right. I have some freeze dried food and other supplies coming from Amazon. 

Tondeleo: During the course of our discussion on how the rich people expect the poor to support them – and how for some reason many poor feel compelled to defend the rich, the topic turned to the TV preachers. I asked Doc if he ever sent money to the TV preachers. I know he and Marilyn and some of their friends go to church. I have never seen them watching any TV preachers, but I wondered if they sent money to them. Many of the American TV preachers promise that God will make you wealthy if you send them money. And many of the poorest of people do send them money. I have read that the richest ministries in America are supported primarily by the poor and the elderly. People who can least afford it. That is where this conversation begins.

“So, Doc, why is it that poor people feel compelled to send money to these obviously rich TV preachers? These TV preachers, both men and women boast about their wealth and their luxury cars, and their mansions and private jet planes. Yet, these things and that lifestyle came from the gifts of their donors, many of whom are poor and elderly. How is it that people give to them? I don’t get it.”

Doc: You’re right. You’re right, Tondy. But you gotta understand this. You ain’t never been poor. I ain’t never been nothing but poor.

When you’re poor, you know you can’t do nothing to ever have much money. Ain’t nobody want to pay a poor person more than minimum wage. They know you’re hurtin’ and they know you’ll take it. And they know that ain’t nobody else gonna pay you more than that, so you GOTTA take it.
So all you got left is two things.Either play the numbers [buy lottery tickets] or give to the TV preachers and hope that they is tellin’ the truth, that God’ll give you a hundredfold return. That means if I send them ten dollars, somehow God will let me get a hold of… of… of… uh.. ummm…

Doc reaches for a pencil and an envelope to add it up… 10 plus 10 plus 10 plus 10. I don’t want to wait for him to add it a hundred times.

Tondeleo: A hundredfold means you would get a hundred times ten dollars, Doc. That would be a thousand dollars for every ten dollars you send in.

Doc: Yeah, I was gettin' there. The TV preacher tell you the truth in one part. That is that if you plant a seed into good soil, it will grow and multiply. That is true, anyone knows that. If I plant a tomato seed and it grows, it will produce more than a hundred seeds from the tomatoes what grows on the plant. Maybe a thousand seeds. No argument there. That is the truth and you don’t even need to believe the Bible to know that.

But then they tell you that THEY is the good soil! That is like a rat tellin’ you if you plant your corn in good soil you will be eatin’ corn on the cob an’ then have a lot of seed left to plant more corn, which is true, but then that rat tells you that HE is the good soil! 

If you give your corn to the rat, Tondy, it ain’t gonna multiply! You ain’t gonna have corn on the cob! All you gonna have is rat turds.That rat so’t want you to plant your seed in good soil, he wants you to plant it in him so he can eat it! If you give your seed to the rat, you ain’t getting’ nothin’ back but turds.

God don’t nowhere in the Bible tell you to give your money to rich folks. He says to give your money to poor folks and needy folks. But not all needy folks is good soil neither. He ain’t tell you to give your money to crackheads and drug dealers an’ folks that is doin’ wrong or folks what hates God.

He says to give to the poor folks what you know. An’ widows an’ orphans – what is kids who ain’t got they parent lookin’ out for ‘em. Their parent may be alive but maybe their daddy is in jail and they mama is a crack head. Somebody got to look out for those kids.

He tells you to look out for the immigrants too, Tondy. He says help them. He don’t tell you nowhere to hate the immigrants.  

My preacher down at the church says if you give to help a person who is needy and can’t help themselves, the Lord will bless you for it. The good book says that. He says that the person what gives to the poor lends to the Lord and the Lord will repay you. You got to give to poor folks and help out those what needs helping. I marked it in my Bible right here so I could find it again. Got a piece of paper stuck in it. 

[Reading slowly and deliberately] “He that has pity upon the poor lends unto the LORD; and that which he has given the Lord will pay him back.” That is real clear. The good Lord wants us to give to the poor, not to the rich. And that is when God will bless you for helpin’ someone. When you give to the poor.

Tondeleo: And where is that in the Bible, Doc?

Doc: Let me find it again… that’s Proverbs chapter 19 and verse 17.
But God don’t bless you for givin’ to the rich. He said and I got it marked in my Bible… it’s right here. It is Proverbs chapter 22 and verse16. “He that oppresses the poor to increase his riches, and he that gives to the rich, shall certainly come to poverty.”
 
Now guess who that first part is about? It is about the rich people, including those rich preachers who take money from the poor so they can get richer. Those TV preachers tell the poor people that they will get a hundredfold return if the poor people send money to them.
But God says if you give to rich people, whether it is rich preachers or rich politicians, you’re definitely gonna stay poor.
 
You can’t be on TV every day unless you’re rich. It costs millions! And you can’t get to be a politician on any kind of level unless you’re rich. All them people runnin’ for President is multi-millionaires. Every one of them. And God says if you give them money, you’ll end up goin’ broke. 

My mama use to send 10 dollars a month to her favorite tv preacher for more than 30 years. And she ain’t never got not even a one fold return, let alone no hundredfold return. That’s because she was givin’ to the rich. You ain’t supposed to give to the rich. You’re supposed to give to the poor. That’s what Jesus said. She shoulda been givin’ that money to help ohter folks that was havin’ money problems. 

These TV preachers mostly is livin’ like kings on the money what poor folks send in. They is livin’ in mansions and flyin’ around in their jet airplanes. They ain’t givin’ money, they are spendin’ money on themselves. When is the last time you heard of a rich preacher or politician givin’ to the poor? I mean giving their own money to help the poor? It ain’t happenin’ Tondy.
If you’re givin’ to them, you’re not plantin’ your seed in good soil, you’re feedin’ a rat or a pig. If you feed your seed to a pig, you don’t get a return. Well, what you DO get ain’t nothin’ you want to eat. 

An’ Jesus said don’t cast your pearls before swine. That means don’t give your money to pigs. He said they will turn on you trample you. After you helped them, they will not help you, and you will end up worse than if you gave them nothing. 

If you read that Bible, it’ll keep you from sendin’ the money to the rich an’ it will get you to helpin’ the poor, no matter where they come from. That’s what me an’ Marilyn tries to do. Help people.

Tondeleo: I was going through some of my recordings of conversations with Doc Stevens, and ran across this one that I thought you would enjoy. 

It’s common for rural rednecks to misuse words because first of all, many of them are illiterate or at best, are poor readers who cannot spell well at all. Second, these are the same ones who don’t seem to listen all that well, so when you are talking, they may mishear you and substitute a word that you used for a word that they know.

Below is a classic situation like that where Doc talks about a friend of his who was going to get divorced.

Doc: My buddy Ralph an’ his ole lady been fightin’ and she was ‘cusing him of cheatin.’ Now he ain’t ever cheated on her ‘cause he’s too ugly but she don’t think so, an’ also she thinks that just ‘cause he plays guitar that all the women want him. But Ralph ain’t like that. He ain’t had that many girlfriends afore he met Shirl, an’ he ain’t had any since then, mostly cause he’s ‘fraid of her goin’ all buck wild on him if he ever did get one.

Then, if Ralph happens to go to church with her, she’s tryin’ to get him to go to the altar at the end of the service to repent of cheatin’ on her, when he ain’t even done it! An’ he ain’t gonna lie to the good Lord, just to get Shirl to shut up.

Shirl’s done told all the women in the church that Ralph got a rovin’ eye, and that made things worse, really. One of them prophesied that he was gonna leave Shirl an’ the kids, so now Shirl thinks it’s a done deal, unless the Lord works a miracle. 

Another problem what makes her like that is she picked up a lot of weight over the years so now she’s real o’beast. Ralph ain’t like o’beast women, he likes ‘em small, so Shirl’s real touchy ‘bout that.

Anyway, she been naggin’ Ralph so much he decided he wanted to get divorced. Shirl ain’t want no divorce so she was tellin’ him how the lawyers was gonna take everything he had, his tractor, his truck, his guns, his guitar, all of it. So Ralph got pretty scared. He don’t even have enough money for a lawyer.

She said it would take a year for them to get divorced anyway. So Ralph was scared, an’ didn’t want to wait  year. He asked her if they was any other way, and she said, yeah, they could go see a marriage canceller.

She told him a canceller was cheaper and would only be about six months and wouldn’t take his truck and guns and guitar. But Ralph would have to pay outta pocket. He took a couple of his guns over to the pawn shop at White Plains, an’ got enough cash to see the canceller a couple times.

Anyway, Tondy, they went to see the canceller. Ralph told him how he ain’t really want to lose everything, an’ all he wanted was out.

The canceller acted like he wasn’t that interested in cancelling their marriage! Ralph said he told Ralph to quit makin’ hog noises whenever Shirl was goin’ for the last piece of pie, and to quit callin’ her Hoss an’ Tubby O’Lard, an’ names like that.

He told' Ralph that him and Shirl needed to come back once a week for six months. So Ralph asked if at the end of it the marriage would be cancelled, an’ the canceller said that he hoped at the end of six months, they’d be happily married!

Tondy, if that marriage cancellin’ aint a racket, I don’t know what is, do you? I told Ralph he might as well just quit seein’ the canceller an’ ignore all them mean things Shirl been sayin’ to him. Don’t ever waste your money on marriage cancellin’ cause it don’t work.

Tondeleo: I was going through some of my recordings of talks with Doc and ran across this short little story. It typifies Doc's sense of humor and initial aggressive attitude, which mellows if you don't overreact immediately.

A lot of what Doc says is purely for effect, or because he likes to hear it said, and nobody else is saying it. Here’s an example is:

Doc: "So the boss man is tryin' to get me an' the other boys what worked there to come in on Saturdays and Sundays cause he cain't figure out how to make enough money Monday through Friday.

And that's with him already over charging the customers, and payin' us as little as he can get by with, and even then not payin' us our full paychecks every week. And that was only payin’ us minimum wage. You can’t live on minimum wage even if you got maximum hours. When they keep you broke, Tondy, they got you over a barrel.

So he says to us on Friday afternoon, as we was pickin' up our pay, "Hey, y'all's comin' in to work tomorrow and Sunday. Everybody is. Be here at 8 o’clock."

The other guys just moaned under their breath, but I weren't comin' in. I had a lady's car to fix on Saturday, and needed to go to the laundromat on Saturday nite. Sunday morning I was helpin' my buddy pack his things up, over to the trailer park so he could move, Sunday afternoon, I was invited to a Gospel concert and picnic with free food. I like Gospel music, and I like free food. Them church women can COOK! ANd they usually give out doggie bags full of leftovers, what become my lunch the next week. I ain't had no time to come in on Saturday or Sunday, Tondy.

So I said to the Boss Man: "I ain't comin' in. I ain't got time to work here for you seven days a week."

Boss Man points to a poster on his office wall. One of them ones with a picture of a eagle on a mountain and then at the bottom has a fancy sayin'. He had a lot of them posters what is made so bosses can take a vantage of they's workers.

He says, "Look at that, Doc. It says, 'There is no "I" in team.' What do you think of that? It isn't about YOU it is about US. We're a team and there is no I in team. You HAVE to make time to come in and work with the team.”

Suddenly I heard myself sayin' "MAKE time? Make time? Well, in the word 'time' there's a I and a ME, so I guess I am gonna have to quit to go work for ME, if you start this workin' all the TIME stuff."

An' you know what? He let us all not HAVE to work on Saturday an' Sunday, if we already had plans. An' he asked us not to plan much for the next two weekends. We could handle that, since he was givin’ us notice.

But sometimes bosses know what they’re gonna do and they like to show their power by not letting the workers know til the last minute.  He were a pretty good ol' boy after all, if you pushed him. No doubt. But you had to push him. A lot of bossmen are like that.

An’ I admit, I WERE kinda scared for a minute he was gonna fire me for sayin' that!

When I heard that come out of my mouth, I was scared, cause after the work on that lady’s car, I didn’t have no other work at the garage at the moment. I didn’t have no gigs to play, it was too cold and rainy to go to DC and sit out on the sidewalk and play… and the rent was due the next week. The landlord likes it when I work!

But somebody needed to say it and I guess it fell to me. That happens a lot. There’s something what needs to be said, and nobody’ll say it, and then I hear it come outta my mouth.

Tondeleo: This is a continuation on Doc and Big Dave talking about how they do NOT play bluegrass, and that not all rural Americans even LIKE bluegrass.

Doc: Tondy, like we been sayin’, not all mountain people plays bluegrass or even likes it as much as city people does.

Some of the places we play at when we was growin’ up and where we plays now when we go back down home, don’t allow no bluegrass, no country western and no electric guitars. Some songs ain’t got no instruments. Just sung. Some of the work songs and the sad songs is just sung straight from the heart. I do that sometimes.

This ain’t music for sellin.’ It’s gospel spirituals, work songs, coal minin’ songs and such. But up here, we play more songs what people want to hear. And we ain’t about goin’ out an’ showin’ our shame.

Big Dave: Yeah, we play what we got to play here, and we still draw the line ourselves on what we play. Old country, blues roots, Gospel and things like that. But we don’t do no new country western or bluegrass. Of course, we ain’t no GOOD at bluegrass! We don’t play it! (laughs)

Me and Doc, we like electric guitars and our friends do, because we like to be able to play loud and we like the tone that you get on a tube amp. We like a little distortion, but even that is the music we grew up playin’ with our friends and neighbors. You can play a acoustic guitar into a mike like they do at a lot of the festivals and places we play, but it just sounds like a louder acoustic guitar, which is what they want.

Doc: We like overdrive, Tondy! But we also grew up with fiddles, and I like fiddles if played right, and banjo’s and such. I like a mandolin ok. A banjo with bad tone don’t set well with me. If a banjo aint played right, it sounds like a bunch of bees stingin’ me in the ears.

But a lot of folks down home and in a lot of places ain’t got no electric, so they gotta play music without it. I take my ‘coustic guitar and dobro when I go down there, unless I know I’m goin’ where there is ‘lectric.

Marilyn: I like playin’ harp. That runs in our family for back to my great grand dad and Doc thinks my great great grand dad. I like a dulcimer, too. Doc has one that he strung with guitar strings and plays with a bottleneck slide sometimes.

Another thing what runs deep is dancin.’ My aunt does flatfoot and cloggin’ but I can’t do none of that. I can yodel, and always could, but she cain’t yodel!!! Uncle Doc can yodel, but he don’t do it too much. 

Doc: A lot of the mountain roots music and blues roots is about the same thing. Bein’ broke. Havin’ a mean boss or bad landlord what don’t understand. Bein’ sick. Bein’ cheated on. Your loved one dyin’. Some is about just bein’ sick of this earthly life and wantin’ to just go ahead and go to Heaven. All the songs is about the basic thing about bein’ human and what goes on in your heart in hard times.

A lot of the sound comes from church where it gets blended, black and white folks, singin’ the same songs, and we pick up a little bit from each other, but we don’t copy no one. Most of us, at least my people is Pentecostal, too. Pentecostal folks whether white or black usually got a heart for music and have a bunch of good musicians and singers.

Tondeleo: Isn’t any music that’s made with banjo’s and mandolins by definition, “bluegrass?”

Big Dave: No. There’s differences. Bluegrass is more modern, like for city people that maybe came from the country and were missing home, and bluegrass was a way to sell that sound. I don’t know. I like Dawg Music, which has then same instruments, but isn’t bluegrass and ain’t quite country. David Grisman does it.

Doc: Well, as I see it, mountain music, roots music is more about bein’ music to dance to, more about a steady beat. That’s what we do in everything we do, keep a good beat. Mountain music uses more open tunings, which blues roots does, too. Both uses Open G a lot.

I grew up listenin’ on the radio and on the records when Daddy  could get them, and sometimes live to the Carter Family, the Mainer's, the Stoneman's, the Delmore's and the Blue Sky Boys,the Carter Brothers and folks like them.

I spent some time with Donna Stoneman and know her to be a good Christian and nice person. Her sister Ronnie was on Hee Haw. But all them people ain’t bluegrass. Mountain music and roots, I call it. We like that ok, heck we grew up on it. But we also needed to get away from it when we got out of there and done some travellin’ and didn’t want to be hillbillies.

Big Dave. He’s right, Tondy.

Marilyn: We live in the country and we ain’t got much money, but we ain’t hillbillies.

Tondeleo: As you know, I initially expected rural Americans, especially those from the southern Appalachian region, to all play bluegrass music, ad to only like bluegrass. That is why I was surprised when I first began meeting Doc, Big Dave and their friends, because not only do they not play bluegrass music, but they seem to have an aversion to it.

I have learnt these past few years that some of the aversion is shame. Shame for the poverty they grew up in, shame for being thought of as hillbillies, and shame for the memories that some of the bluegrass music evoked. I had never thought of these factors.

I always thought of bluegrass as happy, simple music that hearkened back to a simpler more honest and good time in simpler and more wholesome environments. But for many people who lived in those times and places the memories are anything but good.

Doc: See, Tondy, to a office boy what has never been down to where we lived, it seems good and happy. Or if someone been away a while. But if you lived there and were dirt poor, and your daddy was a drunk, and your older brothers was drunks, and your grand daddy was a drunk and your uncles was drunks, you ain’t got to many good memories in the first place. ‘Bout nothin.’

You remember fightin’ and hollerin’ and women bein’ hit and ‘bused an’ getting’ your own butt whipped for doin’ nothin’ or for standin’ up to the old man when he was drunk and hittin’ your mama. And they was always bluegrass music bein’ played in the background.

Big Dave: Yeah, and when you go to town people look down on you for how you talk and how you dress and you don’t have any money to buy anything. You get ashamed of what you are and your family and everything you got. when people look at you and spit, and then cuss you, callin’ you a dumb hillbilly, you’re not going to do anything to make them think that even more.

Doc: We was poor, and we worked with other poor whites, poor blacks… anyone what wasn’t getting’ paid good or treated right. With all that pain built up, we needed to get it out, and we played music and sang about it. We wasn’t thinkin’ what KIND of music it was. We just sang what we was feelin’ and about what we was goin’ through.

Some of it was songs we learnt off the radio what was singin’ about how we felt. Some was songs from other people what talked about how we felt. Some was church songs, about the Lord or askin’ the Lord to get us through a hard time.

Some was about how good it felt to be in love. Some was about bein’ cheated on or bein’ brokenhearted. It was all kinds of music. Some Kitty Wells, some Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Bob Wills, Hank Snow and we listened to Muddy Waters, B.B. King, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Blake, John Lee Hooker. I always liked John Lee Hooker real good.

Big Dave: I like John Lee Hooker real good, too.

Doc: So we played a bit of this, a bit of that. The whites and the blacks, they called themselves coloureds back then, all sang about the same things. Havin’ no money, mean bosses, mean women, cheatin’ women, whiskey, fallin’ in love. Tondy, all people feels them things.

We didn’t never put a name on what we played. Only when I come up north did they call it a name. It was just music what poor people knowed and sang.

Up here, in the 90’s they said what we played was blues. But not real blues, they said it had other names. We said it was “downhome” music. I still call it that.

Big Dave: They call some of it “country roots blues.” We play some of that, on acoustic. I heard that it is called Piedmont Blues, especially what Doc plays when he is playin’ alone at the house. That’s acoustic and they use the thumb for the bass line and the pointy finger for the chords or notes.

But most places if we are playin’ indoors, we use electric guitars and play old blues music that most people like. We play it because we know how and because we like it and they like it too. Blacks and whites. 

Doc: I heard that one before, Big Dave. Piedmont.A man in DC called it that. That is how whites and blacks played guitar down home. It’s how you play when you just sit down and start playin.

I don’t play that way out in public too much ‘cause I think it might sound too much like a poor man. But I do that on my ‘lectric guitars what gots bass strings. Nobody notices it, but it gives me that bass line and the rhythm guitar line and a little lead. When the guitar is set right, that is the best way to play if you come from down where we do.

Big Dave: But Doc is the onliest one I know with the bass set up like he has. It sounds real good, and it gives me somethin’ to play lead over. Makes a full sound.

Doc: When we play Gospel music, it’s the same way. Old downhome songs from when we was kids. We ain’t do nothing new. We do a lot from the Gales…

Big Dave: Their real name is The Sensational Nightingales. I only learned that a few years ago, Doc.

Doc:  We do Gales’ songs. Spirituals. Sister Rosetta Tharpe – Marilyn sings her stuff a lot. Just stuff we grew up on. People like it the first time they hear it, and the old folks love it ‘cause ain’t nobody do it anymore, but us. They see us and still think, “Look at those dumb white hillbillies, but when we start playin’ and the Spirit starts movin’ they are clappin’ and singin’ and stompin’!

Tondeleo: One thing that fascinated me when I first began working around real American rural musicians is that they did not all play bluegrass music. That is the stereotype that we hold of them: blowing on moonshine jugs, playing banjo’s, mandolins, jaw harps, violins and guitars.

When I met Doc and his friends several years ago, they described what they played as “downhome country blues roots.” It is a mix of country, blues and a fair bit of early rock and roll. I was curious as to how this fit in with the stereotype that we have of these people playing nothing but bluegrass.

Following is an interview I had with Doc and Big Dave a couple of years ago.

Doc: Why don’t we play bluegrass? Well, we ain’t got no banjo’s or violins or mandolins first off, Tondy. We got guitars, I got a bass and we got amps. Bluegrass don’t like basses and amps and electric guitars. But we do.

My family was tryin’ to get away from all that when we was comin’ up. People called us hillbillies and my Grand dad said we needed to quit lookin’ and talkin’ like hillbillies or we ain’t never gonna have anything or amount to nothin.’

Big Dave: I don’t like bluegrass. Ain’t nobody told me to. It just reminds me of my old man. He listened to bluegrass all the time. If it wasn’t his friends comin’ by and playin’ it at the house, it was on the radio. It got bad memories for me. It gets on my nerves.

Tondeleo: Bluegrass gets on your nerves? I thought all rural Americans thrived on bluegrass!

Big Dave: Well, you thought wrong, little buddy.

Doc: We don’t play bluegrass. I never learned it. When I was comin’ up I learned from my grand dad and uncles, and their friends. Some was white and some was black. We all learned each other’s songs. But he steered us away from bluegrass.

I been to places where all they play is bluegrass, and I can be playin’ along, and some office boy what took “bluegrass lessons” will watch me a few minutes and then tell me that I am not playin’ “bluegrass chords.” Bluegrass chords? What’s that? I never learnt no bluegrass chords. I ain’t never took lessons.

I learned a lot of what I play from being in the drink houses. That was whites and blacks and mixed people. Just poor people what had problems and still wanted to sing. Mostly they ain’t know what they was playin’ as far as chords go. They just figured out what sounded good.

I ain’t know the names of all the chords. I know more than some people does, as for the names, but not all of them.I just play what I seen other people play an’ I have some what I figured out, and I slide ‘em up and down the neck to make different ones. That’s what mostly I seen comin’ up.

We’d take our guitars and go to the drink house and eat and talk and play music.

Tondeleo: Drink houses. What are drink houses?

Doc: A drink house is what they have a lot of down south, in North Carolina especially. If they ain't a bar in the area where you can go down for a drink or play some music, a person might just open their house up as a drink house.

You can’t just go and hang out in a bar all night if you ain’t drinkin’ and if you’re dirty from work, they ain’t like that too much neither. A drink house is where poor folks go to hang out and talk and drink and relax.

It's just a person’s house, and they might have they livin’ room or back room with a little bar in it, and a few beers in the ‘frigerator, and maybe a few bottles of liquor in the cabinet. You give 'em a couple of bucks and they give you a shot of whiskey or a beer. Maybe even a dollar might get you a sip, if all you got is a dollar. You can just hang out there and talk of play music or whatever you want, as long as you're not causing any trouble.

People in the neighborhood'll come by. Some will pull up in their car and come in just for a drink and leave. Others hang out there all day or evening.It’s a place to hang out, to talk, meet people and swap songs and learn a little by watchin’ what the other guy is doin’ and listenin’ to how he is playin’ and then do it yourself. You can learn a lot that way.

Sometimes they got a radio on, and you can learn some songs that way. That’s where some of the songs we play come from. That and old records we found here and there.

Big Dave: Yeah. I used to go to drink houses when I was in western North Carolina. It was just a cheap place to go and waste some time, and eat a sandwich and play music.

Some of 'ems open just some days or some evenin's and others is open day or night, seven days a week. Some's got a poker game in the back room or out on the picnic table in the back yard in the summer.

Some got a room fixed up where you can play music inside, with a little stage area over in the corner.

Some sell drugs, some don't. Some sell about anything a person could want, if they know you or you is family to a friend of theirs.

I never went for that. I just went for a sandwich, some music and some place to go before going back to my room to sleep.

Doc: You ain’t got to be a drunk or druggie to go to drink houses. I went for the food and music mostly and people what don’t have any money or good clothes got to be able to go someplace, too after work. Where else are we gonna go?

And that’s where we learnt to play and where we learnt the songs we sing. A bit of everything. Hank Williams, Webb Pierce and all them from my grand dad and uncles and they’s friends, and then John Lee Hooker, BB King, Albert King and a bunch of others from the drink houses.

Really, you got to know all of it so you can make a few dollars. We play some places where it is mostly white people and they want that country music what they call roots. So we play it. Some people think we only play country.

Some places we play is like we are the only white folks there. We play blues; John Lee Hooker, Artie White and BB King and all those kinds of songs there. They ain’t never hear us play country.

Sometimes we play where it is mixed and we do mixed music there. A bit of blues, a bit of country. Whatever they want. We play Gospel too, Tondy! We learnt that at church. But also at drink houses and from family. Most poor folks go to church some time in their life, because life is hard and they need help from the Lord. I need help from the Lord.

And me and Marilyn like singin’ and playin’ Gospel music. It reaches down deep inside you.

Tondeleo: I know, I’ve heard you do that, and I quite like it, I do…

Doc: We like that Gospel, Tondy. Not the new stuff. The old stuff. When a man is poor and can’t deal with his problems, he can turn to drinkin’ and drugs, or he can turn to the Lord. I been turnin’ to the Lord when I get down in the mully grubs, and sometimes I can just pick up my guitar and sing a while and I feel all better. We play Gospel around the house a lot. A whole lot.

Tondeleo: With the worldwide recession, there are many people worrying about if they are going to be having a good Christmas this year. Cor, I’m even wondering what I’m going to do. I don’t have enough money to get anything for my Mum and I have yet to pay my December rent on my flat. Work has been slow for me and my income has been down. Most of my mates are in the same situation.

I rang up Doc and asked him about their Thanksgiving and also to ask about their preparation for Christmas.

Doc: Well, Tondy, Thanksgivin’ went good. Marilyn had that boy what she likes come over, that Gavin. She was all swoony all day over him - but what I liked about it is that she is tryin’ to impress him at what a good wife she would be. She made all kinds of extra food to get that long legged rascal worked up into proposin’ one day!

She made her tuna loaf like always but she put some extra stuff in it what I don’t know but it was better n’ usual. She made up two cans of corn beef hash what she made into patties an’ then made a hole in the middle like a donut and put a egg in each one and fried it. That was good, but she ain’t made enough for him to get any!

Me an’ Big Dave ate ‘em up! We told her we was checkin’ to make sure they wasn’t poison, and next thing you know they was all gone! But we tol’ Gavin about it an’ he understood an’ said he woulda done the same thing if they was good as we said they was, which they was, so it was ok.

Thurman Goodlett and Amy came over and brought sodas from the Wal Mart’s and some chips and dip. I think that Amy coulda ate every bit of it by herself, I tell you! She ain’t but about five foot tall an’ maybe a hundred pounds or so, but she can eat like a horse! But she don’t eat hay, she eats people food! And she was eatin’ it off my table! She was tryin’ to eat it all in one sittin’!

But we all had a good time an’ ate all we wanted, and then took naps. Once we all woke up, we got out the guitars and played for a couple hours. Of course, Thurman danced. We was all thankful to the Lord for givin’ us good friends an’ families, and shoes on our feet an’ roofs over our heads an’ enough money at the last minute when we really need it. He been good to us all, Tondy.

Tondeleo: What about Christmas, Doc? Money’s scarce here and I know it is always tight for you and your friends… but with the recession how are you going to have Christmas this year?

Doc: How we gonna have Christmas? We’re gonna go to sleep on Christmas Eve and then wake up in the mornin’ and it’s gonna be Christmas! We can’t stop it just because we ain’t got money! They Lord ain’t had money and he STARTED Christmas! I mean he was a baby an’ didn’t know it was Christmas, but it was started on account of him. He was poor all his life.

Tondeleo: But what about the gifts? And, with all the cold weather and work slowing down, aren’t you concerned about making it through the Winter this year?

Doc: We ain't worried about the future or about money or none of that, Tondy. The preacher down at the church said God'll take care of a person if they work hard and live right and I try to do both, much as I can. Ain't no moss growin' on me.

I work hard and I work long and then I play music wherever we can for whatever we can or even out on the streets. Preacher said if we're doin' that an' payin' our ties, God'll take care of us. He said we got a Jehovah Gyro.

I ain't too sure what that is, but it is good and that preacher is the real deal. He ain't no corn artist like a lot of them is. He lives just like the people in the church an' he'll help most anybody what needs helpin’.

---

Preacher said if we're doin' that an' payin' our ties, God'll take care of us. He said we got a Jehovah Gyro. I ain't too sure what that is, but it is good and that preacher is the real deal. He ain't no corn artist like a lot of ‘em is.

---

Long as we work hard and treat people right an’ give to the poor the preacher said that Jehovah Gyro will take care of us like he has always taken care of folks what does the best they can an’ loves the Lord.

We’ll be all right for Christmas. We usually come up with somethin’ to get our loved ones an’ we all pitch in an eat together and plays music, but on Christmas we sing some Christmas songs - but not a lot of them cause most of them is hard to play – and we make up some of our own Christmas songs, too. And we are thankful to the Lord for comin’ to earth to help everyone in life and be able to go to heaven when they die. I want to go to heaven when I die and so does Marilyn and most of our friends.

We’ll be ok for Christmas, Tondy and we’ll be ok after Christmas and the rest of the year too. And so will you. It ain’t about money, it’s about getting’ with the folks you care about and bein’ as good as you can to them all year round and then Christmas goes good. You’re good people, Tondy so don’t worry. And you ain’t got to get me an’ Marilyn nothin’ for Christmas, neither. We ain’t ‘spectin’ nothin’ and you get something real nice for your mama what gave you birth. That is the best thing what matters. Take care of your Mama and don’t make the Lord mad.

Tondeleo: I am not very familiar with the American church scene. In the UK, we have primarily Church of England, and then some of the non conformist churches, and perhaps some others that I am not acquainted with and to be quite honest, I have never been tempted to go to.

I have read about churches that are known as "Seeker Friendly" churches, but had never been to one. A seeker friendly church is, as I understand it, a church that is geared towards people who don't go to church, and it gives them religion in baby steps, and the programme is based on fun, feeling good, being pleasant, and never making anyone feel uncomfortable - about anything.

In the States, I have met many people who are church goers, and a bloke that I met in a piano bar invited me to attend his church on Sunday morning. I am not used to meeting people in bars who have had a bit too much to drink and who also are evangelical Christians. I commented on this to him, and he said that Jesus drank wine, so he reckoned that he was allowed to have a few pints as well. His girlfriend Chrissie giggled that only self righteous people condemn people for having a few drinks on a Saturday night.

Actually, I wasn't condemning, I was enquiring. I am not certain of all the American standards of piety, and after we talked a bit, I agreed to meet him and Chrissie at their church on Sunday. I have not been to many churches.

On Sunday, I pulled into the car park which was packed with cars. I made my way into the building where my new friend and his girlfriend were waiting for me at the Welcome Center. They introduced me to the smiling couple who were working at the Welcome Center.

They gave me a Welcome Packet which contained a form for me to fill out, with a long listing of areas of interests and hobbies for me to note my level of interest in. There were several full colour tri folds and brochures telling about the many programmes of the church and the various "community groups" and "relationship building" activities that I could be a part of. It was quite a lot, for a church, and many of them seemed to have nothing to do with religion or spirituality. Also in the Welcome Packet was a biro with the church's name imprinted on it and a coupon for a free cup of Starbucks coffee and a free chicken sandwich at a local eatery.

My new friend Ron, and Chrissie, led me to the refreshments table where there was an assortment of bagels, pastries and fruit, as well as bottled water, coffee and tea (well, tea bags that could be dipped in the hot water from the dispenser). I went for a bottled water and a bagel. I tried to eat it before going into the main auditorium, but Ron and Chrissie assured me that at this church, we actually eat in the auditorium part, during the service. Looking around, I saw some of the other people I had seen at the piano bar and at the bar of the Holiday Inn where I have stayed when in town.

The service began with a rock band singing religiously themed 80's style power ballads. Two of the band members I recognized from a local club I had been to, and pointed it out to Ron. He said that these guys did indeed play in some of the local bars and clubs, that the Lord didn't mind.

I was remembering some of the songs they had been singing when I heard them at the bar. I remembered the cups of Budweiser that were sitting on their amps, and I began to call to mind some of the songs they had been singing, which I would not think that a spiritually minded person would sing. Some of the lyrics were quite explicit.

I must confess, I felt that it was out of place for someone to be singing on a Saturday in a bar, and singing about sex, imbibing in several lagers, and using mild profanity, and then to be singing on Sunday morning about having his whole heart, mind soul and strength belonging to Jesus. I kept my confusion to myself. After all, there were several hundred people here, all singing along with the band and having a good time.

After a couple of power ballads, we were finished our food, so it was time to sing along with a PowerPoint presentation, that had intense graphics and the words projected on two giant screens on the wall. It was not too bad. I quietly sang along. Ron, Chrissie and the others were clapping and having a bit of a time at it. He kept asking if I was having fun.

There was a short skit about how we should not judge people, and then the reverend was introduced. He was a round faced balding bloke about 45, I guess. He wasn't dressed like a minister. He was dressed more like he was ready to go to a theme park or the zoo. He had on a loud American tourist type shirt, and short trousers, and sandals. In my mind, it seemed as though speaking for God was not a very important occasion, which to him it may not be.

He spoke for perhaps 15 minutes, about how God wants everyone to get along well, and to never judge anyone, because we don't know where they are on their journey. He let us know that it was important to invite people to come to church, and to build relationships with them, so they could have a good life. His presentation could hardly be called "preaching." It was cool, low key, manuscripted and was very calmly delivered. He definitely did not break a sweat.

Projected on the screens were various Bible verses that were from different versions of the Bible. The initials LNT, TEV, NIV, and the words The Message were noted after different verses. I asked Ron about this and he said it was so we didn't have to learn the Bible ourselves, and that the Pastor picked the easiest to understand versions of the Bible for us. I looked around and nearly no one carried a Bible. The Pastor did not seem to have a Bible handy, either.

At the end, the "Praise Band" played another power ballad and a girl singer sang about how much she loved the Lord. Then we were let out. Ron and Chrissie were tremendously excited about my opinion of their church. It was very important to them that I had fun and enjoyed it. I have never thought about measuring a church by its' "fun quotient." That seems to be an American seeker friendly idea.

I told them it was ok, and was pleasant, but that maybe I was expecting church to be more like church, you know, with bibles, and preaching, and the minister to be in a robe or suit or something that would indicate that his job and message were to be taken seriously. Ron said that I was "old school," and it didn't work like that nowadays, at least not in the States.

I told Ron and his friends that I must be going, and he said he see me at the piano bar, or another bar that had opened up that I might enjoy. I said my goodbyes, and got in my rental car and drove to where my assignment was.

"Tondy - fruit trees is smaller than nut trees. It's so you can reach up and get the fruit. A fruit tree will FEED you. But nut trees is bigger, and all they do is drop nuts on the ground."

I began to think about Doc and Marilyn and the things they said about church. The churches they go to are smaller, but the people seem to be 100% sold out to their Christianity and the Reverend dresses in a suit, because he says his job is the most important one in the world: representing His Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He preaches from a Bible and the people mostly have their own Bibles and look up the verses that the Reverend is speaking from. And when I say he preaches, I mean that he PREACHES! He is bringing his sermon with every cell in his mind, mouth and body!

The people in these smaller churches are very clear that they no longer go to bars or clubs, and they talk about how the Lord "delivered" them from drugs and alcohol and that "worldly lifestyle." Even though sometimes they can be a bit hokey, I enjoy the simplicity and genuineness of the rural peoples' faith.

Then I remembered something that Doc said about big churches and little ones. One time he walked me to the edge of the woods where they live, and pointed to an apple tree and then to a walnut tree. He said, "Tondy - fruit trees is smaller than nut trees. It's so you can reach up and get the fruit. A fruit tree will FEED you. But nut trees is bigger, and all they do is drop nuts on the ground. A church might be small and have a lot of fruit. One of them big churches MIGHT just have a lot of nuts. So, big don't really mean nothing, Tondy. What means something is if the Lord is there and if the people and the preacher loves the Lord and preaches the Gospel. Then the Lord'll give them fruit."

I didn't understand what he meant at the time, but as I drove down I-95 South through Virginia, I think I began to understand a bit of what he was talking about. Maybe.

Tondeleo: In the last posting, Doc was talking about religion among poor people in the US, particularly about Pentecostalism. Growing up poor, he has some particularly interesting insights into some of the Pentecostal sects that proliferate in America, and as I research it, apparently around the world.

Doc: OK, Tondy, so we was talkin' about churches. Like I said, I ain't been to many of them uptown type churches like 'Piscopal [Anglican] and Lutherns and such. Been to some Baptist, but mostly I always went back to Pentecostal. If I'm gonna go to a church, I want one where I know I'll be able to feel the Lord. I ain't goin' if he ain't there. You can usually feel the Lord in a Pentecostal church.

Tondeleo: And why is that, Doc?

Doc: Well, Pentecostal churches is more lively and upbeat and happy. When a man is broke, beat down and feelin' low, he needs a lift. And he needs a lift that ain't gonna cost him money he aint got, and if he is tryin' to stay sober an' maybe make a new start, that ain't leave much. Plus, if he goes back to bars and drinkin', he's gonna end up in the same old mess, with fightin' and bein' arrested.

Church can be a good place to go, if it's lively enough. If the music is good, and the people are happy and the preacher is excited about what he's talkin' about and if the Holy Ghost is movin'.

Tondeleo: What do you mean by 'the Holy Ghost is moving?' How does he "move?" Where does he move to? How do you know if he is, what you call, "moving?"

Doc: He ain't move like in wigglin' or movin' from one place or another. It means if he is movin' on the people. Durin' the singin' he might start movin' and people'll start dancin' on their own, without thinkin' about it. They might commence to shoutin' or speakin' in tongues, or fallin' out. It gives you somethin' to look at, while you're listenin' to the music an' singin' along.

Tondelo: You'll have to explain some of those words, Doc. Speaking in tongues. Falling out. Most people won't know what that means...

Doc: Who can explain speakin' in tongues? I cain't. But suppose you felt so good you ain't had no words that could tell about it... but you HAD to say somethin', or you'd bust wide open? If you felt God so real all over your body. The words what come out of your mouth might not sound like English, they might not sound like no language on this earth, but you'd be speakin' what you was feelin' 'cause what you is feelin' ain't like nothin' on this earth. That's how I'd 'splain it.

Fallin' out's the same way. you might feel so happy it just overloads your circuits. You ever kiss a girl an' feel lightheaded, Tondy? Girls call it swoonin'. They feel in love an' like they is high on love. It's sorta like that. You might feel God all over you and feel so in love with God and life and other people and the whole world that you get lightheaded and fall out. I done it once. It ain't felt like nothin' on this earth. I was standin' there quiet, and felt the Holy Ghost movin' on me, an' I got lightheaded and kinda high feelin' an' next thing I know, I was lookin' up at people, who was kneelin' aroun' me an' praisin' the Lord. Ain't nothin' wrong with doin' that. You ever done that, Tondy?

Tondeleo: I can't say that I have, no. But I can see where there might be an appeal for someone who needed a lift and to feel significant, especially if he or she was disappointed in life, or felt that no one cares about them. To feel that God himself is touching you would be very affirming, I suppose.

Doc: What? Do you know how much of a sissy you sounded like right then? [Now Doc mimics me, with a horrid attempt at an English accent, in a John Cleese-like falsetto voice, while flopping his wrists around like two fish out of water - Tondeleo] "OOOhhh... I SUPPOSE it could be INFIRMING to a POOR PERSON who needs to FEEL MAGNIFICENT..." Tondy, ain't nobody too good for the Lord to touch them. Even not you.

I'm gonna find a revival and take you to it next time you is here an' there is one goin' on. It don't cost a dime, an' you won't wake up with a hangover the next mornin' . You gonna come an' sit there with me and find out what you been missin'. It ain't about bein' religious. It's about the Lord. Everybody needs the Lord, Tondy. I do. You do. Ain't nobody who don't.

Tondeleo: One thing that I notice about Doc and his friends, as well as other rural poor people in the US is that many of them have a deep sense of religion that I don't find in the UK. It seems to be in their blood, even if it is not readily apparent by their day to day behaviour.

Doc was talking about being in South Carolina, and how he ended up for a while staying in a Christian Mission. In the UK, we have dosshouses, or what are called Homeless Shelters in the US, but we do not have as many Christian based ones as the US does. Also, in the US, it seems like the poorer the neighbourhood, the more tattoo parlours, bowling allies and Pentecostal missions there are. It is especially true in the cities.

Pentecostalism in America is readily available, as it has gotten to be in the UK. I have noticed that in Africa and India, Pentecostalism is also quite common, even though the majority of the population may be clueless as to its existence and its substance.

I presented Doc with some questions about Pentecostalism and its predominance among particularly the poor in America, and here are some of his answers, the best I could understand them.

Doc: What is Pentecostalism? I ain't really know that one, Tondy. I ain't too big on the "ism's." Now, I been to some Pentecostal churches and have stayed in Pentecostal missions. Stayed in one in Orangeburg, matter of fact. Pentecostals is the ones what has more heart than most the other ones. Pentecostals care about poor folks an' they ain't care if you done time or been in trouble. They ain't so uppity.

Tondeleo: So, Doc, how would I recognise a Pentecostal person?

Doc: They aint nothin' to recognise, Tondy! They just look regular like me. You know Slick Ballinger [a talented young Blues guitarist and singer from North Carolina that Doc introduced me to two years ago - Tondeleo], he's a Pentecostal. Goes to a Oneness church. Apostolic. And also, Big Dave, he's a Pentecostal, too, I think. I heard him speak in tongues a long time ago, an' I guess he still does.

Pentecostals look like anyone else. But if you went to church with one, you'd see the difference and you'd hear the difference. Like in a regular church, the singin' is quiet, an' boring. In a Pentecostal church, they sing with all they's hearts! They is singin' to God Hisself and they ain't 'shamed to sing to Him. I tell you, ten Pentecostals'll sing louder than a hundred regular church folks. An' they'd enjoy it more, too.

You clap your hands and stomp your feet to the music. You can dance in a Pentecostal church, too. But not with women. No couples dancin'.

The music's better. Pentecostals put more feelin' in they's playin'. A Pentecostal piano player'll play like Jerry Lee Lewis or Leon Russell or Pinetop Perkins or Katie Webster. Jerry Lee Lewis was brought up Pentecostal. But he backslid. Pentecostals usually aint had no trainin' in music or preachin' an' they cain't read a note of music. They ain't like one of them high falutin' churches what plays by music notes an' sounds like a funeral march.

You clap your hands and stomp your feet to the music. You can dance in a Pentecostal church, too. But not with women. No couples dancin'. You dance by yourself. I done it plenty of times. An' they don't get mad at you for it, if you're dancing for the Lord.

But you ain't s'posed to get in the flesh and be shakin' your rear end or doin' no Michael Jackson moves. That ain't right to do in the house of the Lord. You're s'posed to dance in the spirit, not in the flesh. Matter of fact, dancin' for the Lord is the only dancin' what Pentecostals do. They ain't go to worldly dances.

Tondeleo: You're saying that the music is different, more lively in a Pentecostal church, and that the people can dance to it. Doesn't that seem sacrilegious to you?

Doc: Naw! It ain't sack religious. King David danced for the Lord and I know in the Bible it says somewhere to praise the Lord with dance. I heard a lot of Pentecostal preachers say that one, when some folks was dancin' an' other folks was sittin' there all sour faced an' not praisin' the Lord.

That's another thing, Tondy. The preachin' is different in Pentecostal churches. In a regular church, the preacher is usually a soft talkin' sissy whose afraid to hurt anyone's feelin's. He gets up there an' tickles their ears with a bunch of stuff about love and how God is too good to send anyone to hell and all that. He ain't wantin' no one to ever feel bad, ever.

But a Pentecostal preacher ain't like that! No Sir. First, they ain't usually sissies. Lots of 'em grew up poor. Most of them done some pretty wild livin' in their day before they was preachers. They been there and done that. They can tell you about their days of drinkin', druggin', skirt chasin' and all that. But then they got saved and God called them to preach and most of 'em started right then and there when God called 'em and they let the Holy Ghost teach 'em how to preach.

Some of 'em went to Bible college to get some trainin' and teachin' but it don't make 'em into better preachers. It just gives 'em some book learnin'.

A Pentecostal preacher'll step on your toes, too, Tondy. He'll call a spade a spade an' he don't mince no words. If you're doin' wrong, the Holy Ghost'll tell him and he'll say it right there into the microphone! He ain't scared of nothin' or no one but God. He'll preach and run around, an' unbutton his shirt a little and loosen up his tie when the Holy Ghost comes upon him, and he'll mop his brow with his hanky! He'll jump and shout a little bit, and get the people goin' at it, too! There ain't no sleepin' at a Pentecostal church!

Then, at the end, he'll quiet it on down an' ask you about if you're saved or not. He'll tell you that if you're not, you'll die and go to a devil's hell. But if you'll come to Jesus, you'll be forgiven and get to go to Heaven to be with Jesus, the Angels and all your dead relatives what loved the Lord. It makes you want to go up front. I done it plenty of times, Tondy. Gone up front to get forgiven and to get help from the Lord.

Sometimes other folks'll come up to the altar an' lay hands on you an cry and pray with you. They pray loud, too. Like God is right here in the church, but He might be a little hard of hearing. They'll hug you afterwards and tell you that they felt the Holy Ghost moving on you when they was prayin'. You feel all clean and sorta lightheaded, too. I like Pentecostal churches, I do.

A person might have the devil leave him, and he might get to jumpin' an' shoutin' and cryin' and speakin' in tongues and all the people around'll be clappin' and praisin the Lord too. They ain't nothin' like it Tondy. But don't go if you got a migraine cause they get pretty loud.

One preacher said that earth is the quietest place in the universe! He said in hell they is all shoutin' and cryin' out in pain and in Heaven everyone is shoutin' and praisin the Lord!

Here's something else I like about Pentecostal churches. They ain't like either all white or all black. They usually is mixed. Like I met Ronnie [Perkins] at a Pentecostal church up to Sumter [SC]. I wouldn't have met him in a regular church especially down South Carolina where they is still racist. Down there, pretty much unless they is Pentecostal, the whites ain't gonna worship with black folks. Only the Holy Ghost can overcome racism. It ain't in the heart of man.

What boogie-woogie is to music, Pentecostal is to religion.

OK an' one more thing. Pentecostals'll help you when you is down an' out an' they will pray for you to be delivered if you get into drugs or alcohol or illicit lifestyles. They got love and they cares about people an' they also got more power of the Holy Ghost than regular church folks.

Tondeleo: To summarise, then, Pentecostal churches are more lively, have more demonstrative preaching, and are more emotional, caring and more interactive than the regular churches?

Doc: I don't know all them words, but I would put it like this: What boogie-woogie is to music, Pentecostal is to religion. Period.

I like talkin' about church an' revivals, Tondy. It makes me feel good, as long as you ain't makin' a mockery of it. Then I would be through talkin.'

Doc: Right is right an' wrong is wrong. But you gotta have compassion on folks, too, Tondy. A lot of poor folks does drugs, drinks too much and gambles and some steal when they can. People with money say them things is what causes poverty. I aint sayin' that.

A lot of rich people does drugs, too, And drinks too much too. An' alot of rich peoples steals too. But they can steal with they's computers an' ain't nobody knows it 'til the banks collapse. Poor folks steal with guns an' knives. Rich folks steal with computers.

Tondy, the economy bein' so bad aint from poor folks and it ain't from immigrants. It's from the rich folks takin' everything they could from everybody else they could. And the heads all them companies ain't all white men, neither. I heard on NPR [National Public Radio in the USA] that they was whites, blacks, asians, spanics an' folks what was mixed who was heads of them banks. So it ain't all the white men makin' the economy bad. It is selfish folks.

Different people does different things for different reasons. Ain't all people does things for the same reasons. Some just aint know no better. Like when I was a boy, my daddy gave me beer since long as I can remember. Maybe two or 3 years old. I didn't like it at first an' he would put salt in it to take off the edge.

He told my mama that it canceled out the alcohol. I didn't never like beer too much, but it made him and his friends laugh so I would do it. And it made me feel like a little man. They gave me cigarettes too, Tondy. My uncles smoked reefer and when I was maybe 12 they would offer it to me.

I ain't never tasted whiskey til I was maybe 12 or 13. I took one drink and I liked it. It just felt right in my mouth and felt like a old friend. I just liked it alot. Drinkin' runs in my family and it is in the blood. So that's how I got started. But that's just me.

Same with drugs. I ain't never been too much on drugs, but a lot of people is. Some of it comes from their own family, their mama or daddy. Older brothers and sisters can get you started. Might be a thing where all your friends does it and you just want to fit in.

If you aint raised in church, you don't know it's wrong, it's just somethin' to do, an' everybody else does it, so it must be ok. Even some of the cops says they do it when they's off duty, an' a lot of cops is heavy drinkers.

But here's difference if you're poor and start drinkin' an' smokin' pot and then get to sellin' it. First, you ain't got nothin' goin' for you in the first place, so you ain't thinkin' you got nothin' to lose.

If you're livin' in a motel or little apartment an' there aint nothin' to do, you can be sure one of your neighbors is gonna sell you some pot. And if you ain't servin' the Lord real strong, you gonna smoke it. It's the only break you might get from stress an' all that.

Drinkin' is the same way. Wherever you got poor folks, you gotta liquor store close by, within walkin' distance most the time. So poor folks is gonna go to the liquor store when they's bored. They gonna go when they is stressed. They gonna go when they had a argument with they's family. They gonna go to the liquor store when the boss man fires 'em and they gonna go when they cain't pay the rent an' they's all tore up about it. Poor folks got more reasons to drink an' less options than folks with money.

Gamblin' is somethin' else what poor people stakes more on than folks with money. A poor man knows he ain't got no chance to make big money in his life, an' ain't none of his poor relatives gonna die an' leave him anything. Mostly, when one of our people dies, we all end up passin' the hat for money an' whoever in the family is workin' ends up footin' the bill. An' there is always some in the family what ain't never paid toward no one's funeral.

A poor man will try to buy a couple of lottery tickets whenever he can. It's his only chance. It might be enough to pay his rent, or to buy a car. He might win enough to be a millionaire! Like they say, "you gotta play to win." Folks with money ain't see the lottery as their only hope. It is just something to do for them.

That is why it is a good thing to find a way to not be poor, an' to get better friends what will help you stay sober an'to do the right thing. You is a friend like that Tondy.

You need good friends. Marilyn got a few good friends by goin' to church. They is good people.

Sometimes gettin' in trouble helps. My parole officer one time a long time ago said the Lord'll let you get in hot water to clean up your act. A good scarin' can make a man do better.

You also gotta have a gold [goal], a reason to pull yourself outtat the gutter. Learnin' a trade is a good thing. For me, playin' guitar helped. Takin' care of Marilyn helped. Gettin' right with the Lord gave me the strength I needed. I still need to pray and talk to the Lord for strength, Tondy.

Tondeleo: Some readers may know that over the past several months Doc has come out of his self imposed musical exile. He's played music since he was a kid and traveled around America playing with different artists and local bands. For a while he went by a stage name, and due to his lack of education, he pretty much played the role of the introverted burnout.

Then, his brother died and he took responsibility of raising Marilyn and he dropped out of playing music, other than at home and for places where people knew him, and it brought a stability to his life.

Here is part of a long interview I had with him when I was in the States last week. It will probably end up being several posts. He was relaxed, talkative and had just gotten back from playing at a wedding reception in DC where he and Marilyn were very well received.

Tondeleo: So, Doc, when you were playing with different bands, you said that usually people didn't know how uneducated you were...

Doc: Silence is the dumb man's friend. When I'd keep my mouth shut, aint no one know'd that I didn't know too much or that I didn't talk too well. I just kept my mouth shut mostly, and played a good rhythm guitar, bass or drums and sometimes piano. They don't care if you ain't much on conversin'.

Tondeleo: I know you played in different local bands and then went through a rough spell and lived on the streets and kind of hand to mouth for a while.

Doc: Yeh... I was depressed and things weren't goin' so good. I stayed out west in Wyoming for a while tryin' to get my thoughts together. I had a little money saved up and some money from a settlement but I gave a lot of it away and helped some family members an' relatives.

I ain't much on money. Like I ain't never been into havin' a money collection. I'd rather have a friend than to have a hundred dollars in my pocket. An' money ain't much good if you ain't happy.

I left Wyoming, and went to Senatobia, MS. Lived off Peyton Road with a buddy of mine what I met in Memphis. Memphis is a hour or so north of Senatobia. Stayed in Memphis for a while. Went to North Carolina, Goldsboro. Was in Kentucky for a spell, staying in Nicholasville, outside of Lexington. I like Kentucky real well and want to go back there one day. Played a bit of music there and worked in body shops.

My brother up in Maryland passed an' he'd wanted me to look after his daughter Marilyn. That was my call to duty an' I took it real serious. I had to prove myself to the Department of Socialist Services what meant no unemployment, no runnin' around and to clean up. I went all clean cut like a office boy. No beard. No mustache. No long hair. Squeaky clean.

It's worth it to me to be able to do what my brother wanted and to raise Marilyn. She's 22 now, but says she's 18 sometimes. She ain't no 18, but she says a lady never tells her real age.

Tondeleo: Didn't Marilyn get you back to playing music in public again - like isn't she kind of paying you back by getting you out of the house?

Doc: Yeh. We always sat around in the evenin' playin' music or I was teachin' her about life, but I didn't want to take her to no bars. She don't need to be around that. Once she hit 18, she was old enough that she wanted to play out at family reunions and barbecues and festivals and such. So, we started goin' wherever people asked us to.

Then I had to borrow a cell phone. Got my own now. Had to get email too. I am tryin' to move ahead real slow, but am movin' again in playin' music. Got some of my guitars shipped up here from Bristol one at a time as I would get money orders and send them to Ace down there. Just got my dobro back up here in September. Some places only want acoustic an a regular guitar just don't cut it for me. Had to have the dobro. But Marilyn has got me to get circo-lating and percolatin' again. I probably owe her.

They's a lot of good musicians out there, Tondy. A lot of them. I ain't that good, but I'm easy to deal with pretty much and I will show up if I say I will.

One thing with Marilyn is she also got some of the church folk from her church to talk to me when I would get the blues and that would help a lot. They helped me reconnect with the Lord, so that is a good thing. I ain't perfect and the Lord knows it, but I ain't what I used to be an' I probably aint what I'm gonna be, neither.