Tondeleo: One thing about rural Americans is that they want the same things that other people have, but they usually can't afford them, well unless they steal or sell drugs. For the rest, they have to figure out how to make things themselves or fix things so they can have nice things that we all like. Doc and his friends say that they have made so much out of so little for so long that they can make anything out of nothing now.

Doc, Big Dave, Marilyn and I were standing out front of Doc's house, enjoying the unseasonably warm weather, and talking about how, all in all, life is pretty good. When you try to do the right thing, right things seem to happen for you.

Doc has an old Martin guitar  - 44 years old, to be precise - that he said just seemed to get worse over the years. It got to where it hurt his left hand to play it so he would use his old no-name guitar from the 1950's that he had paid $20 for ten or more years ago. 

Doc: A man needs several guitars for the different places he  plays. Like, out on the street you need a old beater guitar, because it might rain on you, or something might happen to it while you're walkin' from one place to another. You need a old beater electric and a old beater acoustic. but they still have to sound good. But they also can't look good enough that someone would try to steal them. You have to think about that. they have to LOOK like cheap garbage.

For a open mic, you need somethin' that might look a little better, and it's gotta sound good. For a paid gig, you need somethin' that looks pretty good and sounds real good. A 'lectric on for some, and a 'coustic for others. And that is what broke my heart with this old Martin gettin' worse over the years. Plus, after so many years, it's like a pet, like a friend. It gets all full of music from years of playin' and it wants to be played alot. But I could barely play it. It got to where it hurt my hands...

Tondeleo: And then, something happened!

Doc: Yeah, Tondy, I'm pretty excited about this! My Martin been getting worse and worse an' I all but stopped playin' it a few years ago. It didn't sound right, didn't feel right. The strings were too high, it was just gettin' issues. You know that I don't mind tearin' somethin' apart if I think I can fix it. but I am not dumb enough to tear an old Martin apart. I'd probably mess it up even worse. They definitely are not something I want to mess up.

That meant I needed to get ahold of some money and just find someone who can fix it. I know a couple old guys what can do that kind of work, but ain't neither one of 'em doin' it anymore, unless it's little things. They both are geniuses with wood and can make brand new acoustic guitars outta raw wood, so they ain't too interested in tearin' into somethin' like resettin' the neck on a 44 year old Martin. I don't blame 'em. I'm scared to do it too. So that meant I had to come up with two things.

I had to come up with some money and I had to come up with someone who could do the job. It don't do no good to have the money if they ain't no one what can do the work. I asked around and found out it was gonna cost at least $350 or $400 just to get it started bein' fixed, plus whatever else they found when they tore into it.

I sold an old Tele [Telecaster] to a boy down here and fixed a couple other 'lectrics for people what been buggin' me to do their work, and got some money in my pocket. Then I got Marilyn to look on the interweb for someone round here what could fix it. She found me a guy in Arlington over in Virginia, what is about an hour from here. Close enough.

Marilyn: You know how Doc is, Tondy! He's not scared of anything or anybody, but he's scared of computers! He's scared he'll mess something up, or that he won't know what to do - which is true. I think he's scared to admit that he COULD learn something like doing a Google search, but then if he DID learn how to do it, he wouldn't need me anymore - which also isn't true! He can't even balance his checkbook! 

Doc: I ain't scared of no 'puter and I ain't need a checkbook. I pay in cash. So what do I need a 'puter and checkbook for?

Marilyn: Well, when you don't know something, you're pretty quick to call me in a panic and ask me to find out for you! And every month when you're trying to figure out how to pay your bills you seem to need to balance a checkbook!

Doc: Anyway, Tondy, what I was TRYING to say was, Marilyn found this guy. I asked her a bunch of questions and she read me the answers off his interweb page and the answers sounded good. She gave me his number and I called.

Marilyn: I had to MAKE him call! Doc wanted to hop in his truck and just show up with his messed up guitar. Luckily the man didn't put his whole address and luckily we don't have a map of Arlington, and luckily I wasn't available to go anywhere - and Doc doesn't like to go anywhere alone!

Doc: Sure, Marilyn... Now here's what's crazy. Most these people ain't gonna do much work between Christmas and New Years, but I called this one on Tuesday, what was the 29th an' he said to bring it on over. I got my friend George Edelen who is the best guitar player I know round here, and we rode over there.

The guy's name is Daniel. You can tell by lookin' at him that he's smart and also by listenin' to him when he talks. He knows guitars inside and out. He looked at my Martin and pointed out a bunch of things that it needed, and said what it needed wasn't a neck reset which made me feel better right then, but it needed some other things, a lot of little things, and it would cost less than a neck reset.

He talked all about guitars he's made, and all kinds of different wood and what it does to the sound and a bunch of other stuff that was interesting and I learnt alot. Me and George left and both felt good about having Daniel work on it. I figured it's be a couple of weeks, but no! He called me the next afternoon, and it was all done! I couldn't get up there to pick it up right then, but it was done! I couldn't believe my ears, Tondy!

Tondeleo: That's fantastic, Doc!

Doc: What's fantastic ?

Tondeleo: It's fantastic that he took it in right away. It's fantastic that he knew so much, and that he didn't take advantage of you. It's fantastic that he got it done so quickly. It's fantastic that you actually paid someone else to do something for you that was beyond your capabilities...

Doc: Oh yeah. I guess it IS fantastic. I just don't use that word, Tondy.  Anyway, he got it on Tuesday, called me that it was done Wednesday and I got it on Thursday, the last day of 2015. He made it perfect again. For me to tell, because I don't have that much brains, I had to pick it up and close my eyes an' play it and feel what it is doing in my hands and how the vibes are. it was just like it was a long time ago! it was just right. I could not in my wildest dreams think it could be that good and be done that fast, but it was true. Plus he kept to his price what he had told me and didn't all a sudden jack it up when he saw how happy I was with it.

He taught me a few things about fixin' guitars so I could do better on fixin' the kinds I fix - cheap old pieces of crap! Well, that's about it, Tondy except this: He asked me if I wanted a cup of coffee that was better than any coffee I'd ever had, and I figured that he thought I ain't never been to a 7-Eleven before. But he was nice so I played along.

But guess what? We didn't go to no 7-Eleven! Daniel gets his own coffee beans raw off of some dude an' then roasts them right there at his house and then grinds 'em up right there, and makes coffee in a itty bitty little silver coffee pot what he screws together an' puts on the stove. Ok, he didn't lie about that coffee. It was the best coffee I have ever had in my life. I am thinkin' about breakin' one of my guitars just so I can go back over there for some more of that coffee. Seriously.

Oh, here's his info, Tondy. Put all of it on the blob what you type:
Daniel Carbone

Tondeleo: One thing that Doc and Marilyn and the band are very strong about s getting along well with other musicians. Some musicians I have met have an "I don't care what they think; they're not coming to our shows or buying our merch" attitude. And while that may be true, and while musicians definitely can have attitudes towards other musicians and bands, I have found that Doc and Marilyn and their band aren't at all like that. They don't seem to comprehend the idea of competitiveness.I quizzed them about why they don't compete with other musicians and seem to like everybody...

Doc: Well, first of all, a man needs all the friends he can get...

Marilyn: So do girls, Tondy...

Doc: ...and we ain't competin' with nobody. Alot of bands and players are competin', an' that is where they can get an attitude toward other people.

Tondeleo: Competing for what, Doc?

Doc: Well, depends on what kind of music they're playin. Mostly, competin' for gigs, bookin's. Like, if you and five other bands are all tryin' to play at, say, the local bar or club, and you know only one's gonna get it, amd another band is undercuttin' you, you might get mad or ...

John Hungerford from Hometown Band inspects one of Doc's homemade guitars. Bill Hull from The Roadhouse Band looks on benevolently. In the background is Paco Blake from Hometown Band.

 Marilyn:  At least get your feelings hurt...

Doc: Yeah, or feelings hurt if someone else takes your gig away. Especially if they's not as good as you. Even more if they play the same kind of music you play. So, you got your set list and you're good at it, an' then the place stops callin' you so you go down there since NOW you got nothin' to do on Friday night, an' they're pretty much playin' your set list. And not as good as you. You might decide right then and there you don't like them.
You prob'ly need the money to keep the lights on or to pay some bills, and now these other people are playin' your show, and you feel like they're takin' food outta your mouth.

Marilyn: That hurts. Especially when you need some new shoes or jeans or something. Money's tight for everybody.


Doc: So that's one reason you might not like the other band. Another reason is just because they might have an attitude or something like that.

Marilyn: Like a pre-Madonna attitude. 

Doc: We're pretty lucky 'cause we aren't in that situation so none of it matters to us. We play what's in our hearts, and we play it how it sounds in our hearts, and we're already broke, so ain't nobody playin' what we play... and we don't have a set list.

Marilyn: Me and Rick have a list of a couple hundred songs we might pick from, but we never know what is coming next. Doc basically just sings what comes up in his spirit, and that might bring something to my mind, so I might sing that next...

Tondy: Marilyn, why is it that only you and Rick have song lists and nobody else in the band does?

Marilyn: Well, me and Rick need them 'cause we play harp and we need to know what key the different songs are in. Brian is the drummer, so he doesn't need to know any of that. Jerry on lead guitar doesn't know what key he is playing in and neither does Jay on the bass. They just play. But me and Rick need to know, because you have to have the right harp for the right key.

Doc: Yeah, we pretty much go by what the crowd is responding to, and then change it up as we find out what they really like. We might get booked as playin' blues, and then find out what they really like is old country music. Or rockabilly. Or even Gospel. Or rockabilly Gospel! You can't never tell up front. So how you gonna have a set list for that? I cain't read and play guitar at the same time anyway.

When it comes to other bands, once they look at us and hear us, they know we aint any kind of competition for them, and we could not steal their bookin's or their audience, so it's a lot easier to get along.

Some of the bands we are friends with heard us somewhere, or heard us busking or playin' out on the streets, and invited us inside to play with them. You're not gonna be a mic hog when people have been good to you.

A lot of these bands can sound just like the records. We can't do that. we have a hard enough time just sounding like us. So we think real high of a band that can sound like a whole lot of different groups and singers. People don't even realize how much work that is and how much talent it takes.

They can tell we look up to them, and that helps a lot. Most of them have good equipment, which we don't. Plus, we don't even play the places where most the bands play. We mostly do festivals, conferences and conventions... community events...

Marilyn: Civic events, church anniversaries, fish fries, barbecues...

Doc: and pig pickin's and family reunions. I like playin' wherever they feed us. So's the band.

And since we don't play what the other bands are playin', we don't sound like anyone, we don't look like anyone, it just makes it easier to get along, play a lot of music and be friends. And, we feel the songs we sing and we let it show. If we're feeling a song, you're gonna know it, and were not gonna hide it. I cry sometimes when singin' a sad song, 'cause I feel it in my heart. Marilyn does too. Sometimes if I'm singin' and cryin', she starts cryin' 'cause she feels sorry for me up there cryin'! She's a good girl, Tondy.

But whatever we play and however we do it, it ain't never a threat to other bands and singers. so we all get along. We like everybody, Tondy. you know that.

Most of the time, when I go out with Doc Stevens and Marilyn (and now with the Holy Ghost Band) Doc is the front man, playing rhythm guitar and singing. Marilyn sings about half of the songs, and plays harp on the other half. If Marilyn is singing, then Rick plays the harp. If she is playing harp, then Rick plays the bones. Jay "I didn't do it" Jordan plays bass, Buttermilk Wade plays lead and Brian Garner plays drums.

One of Doc's oldest and best friends is Big Dave. Big Dave lives somewhere in the hills of Virginia and visits Doc and Marilyn a few times a year. When they go out to play music, interestingly the roles change.
Doc is no longer the front man, and he no longer plays rhythm guitar, but plays bass. Big Dave does most of the singing, and Doc sits behind him, providing strong rhythm and clean runs on the bass. 

It interests me how the roles change so completely. I ask Doc about it.

Tondeleo: Doc, why is it that you are SO out front when it is you and Marilyn, you and Rick, or you and the band, and suddenly with Big Dave, you retire to the background, and are content to sit there quietly and play the bass?

Doc: Well... I ain't really thought about it that much. Me an' Big Dave go back to maybe when we were 15 or 16, so we've played together for years. I moved around the country a lot since I was about 20 and he took off for somewhere when he was about 19 or so. I lived all over the place and he lived all over the place. We mighta seen each other maybe once a year, IF that, for a long time. But we'd always have our guitars, and when we got together, it'd be based around that.

He's good on guitar, and he sings pretty good,  and I like to listen. He knows a bunch of songs what I don't even know the words to, so I ain't gonna sing 'em and mess him up. So he sings, and I back him up.

Tondeleo: But why the bass, always the bass when you and Big Dave get together? 

Doc: I play regular guitar 90 percent of the time when I'm playin' music. When I'm travelin, I take a acoustic guitar or a 'lectric an' small amp. You can't sit out on the sidewalks busking and do very much with a bass. With a bass, you always need electric, and if you ain't got it, you're dead in the water. So I take an acoustic most of the time.

Plus, Tondy, I'm better on bass than on regular and I like it better. But I don't get to play it much. We got a real good bass player in the Holy Ghost Band. Jay plays a 6 string bass. Other'n that, I have a couple of home made guitars what has two bass strings and four regular strings, and I play those if we're out and our bass player can't make it.  

Tondeleo: Tell me a bit about playing those guitars with the two bass strings. How is that done? Where do you get guitars like that?

Doc:  Well, the first one I made was because I needed to play somewhere and they wanted electric, not acoustic, and I wanted to have a fuller sound, you know, with more bottom end. I was wonderin' how I was gonna compete with the other people playin' who had a whole band.

I was asleep and the idea came to me to drill out the holes on the tuners and the bridge on a regular guitar and put bass strings on it.It didn't cost me one dime. A broke man has to be a creative man. So I got up and went out to the shop and did it. Later, I did that to a couple of box guitars that I made.

Tondeleo: And how is a guitar like that played?

Doc: Well, it sounds stupid playin' it with a flat pick. Sounds muddy. But I play with a thumb pick and my fingers, or just with my thumb and fingers, playin' a bass line with my thumb and  the rhythm part with my fingers. It ain't that hard, really. I mean, if I can do it, it can't be that hard. And it adds some good bottom end to the sound.

Tondeleo: But you prefer to play just a regular bass?

Doc: Yeah, really I do. But nobody wants to hear a man sing while companyin' himself on a bass guitar! So when Big Dave is in the area, It's a good break for me. I like hangin' out with him and hearin' his stories, and I like hearin' his songs, an' I like just kickin' back an' not being out front, just backin' him up an' playin' bass. It's like goin' on a vacation. Well, to me it is.  I ain't got the money for a real vacation. Never have.

Tondeleo: One factor in the sound of many of the deeply rural musicians in America is that they are not in areas where they can get a clean radio signal, internet access is spotty at best, and they just don’t listen to new music.

For Doc and his friends and neighbors, hi speed internet is not even available. The more affluent ones have dial up, which means that YouTube and other media are basically non accessible.

What this means is that the musicians and singers who live in these outlying areas are playing only the songs they remember from their childhoods or ones they learned by hearing other musicians play them live. It keeps them from even knowing how the original recordings sounded.

Another factor is that they could not take real music lessons, so they just picked up the instruments and figured out how to play. Their instruments tend to be old and cheap, or home made. While the musicians from the middle class have nice instruments and equipment, the rural ones have the cheapest and the most improvised of equipment, and it gives them a unique sound. That is again, a disadvantage on one hand, and an advantage on the other.

Doc: Yeah, Tondy, you’re right about that. We cain’t generally pick up the radio out here. And when we do, we ain’t like what they’s playin.’ 

We don’t sound like any other bands and don’t play what any of ‘em is playin’ most of the time. That’s good for them and also good for us.

Then, we got cheap equipment and home made equipment which is more what the original players and singer used. What we play is poor people music, which is what all the originals was: poor.

We mostly play what we grew up with. Music we heard our daddies and mama’s playin’ and singin’. It’s old songs, but good ones, and for us they have all the memories of when mama and daddy was young. We like that music better.

And, no, we ain’t able to go into town to take music lessons for a half day’s wages for a half hour lesson. That is for office boys and their spoilt teenage kids. It takes us 45 minutes to just get to La Plata. That’s a lot of gas. Then a half hour lesson and then 45 minutes back. Plus they want to stand around and talk a little bit, which is ok, but it adds to the time away. 

And then they want you to learn how to read charts and notes while you’re playin’! We aint up to that! It is all I can do to play that dang thing, let alone be lookin’ a a book while doin’ it, and then tryin’ to sing. That ain’t happenin’.

We just stick to what we know. But that ain’t a bad thing. When we go out and play and there is other bands, we ain’t doin’ the songs that they do, so that makes them like us more.
A lot of places get us to play for that reason. Ain’t too many people playin’ and singin’ what we do. We ain’t do NOTHIN’ newer than maybe 1958. And we ain’t doin’ any of the rock and roll hits from back then. 

A lot of people like what we play, but can’t find nobody to play it. Another thing is we ain’t human jukeboxes. We ain’t heard the original records probally in 20 years, and Marilyn ain’t never heard ‘em. So we ain’t hittin’ anything like a note for note copy of the original. Some people like what they call our arrangements. We ain’t got arrangements – that’s just how we remember them, and sometimes we get it wrong.

We all are church folks – and we go to churches where the people really get into it. We jump around in church, Tondy! You been there. Well, when we do it on stage, people think it is good showmanship, but it is just how we do. 

Playin’ out on the streets is somethin’ a lot of musicians ain’t done, and that gives us a different kind of edge. SO I guess bein’ poor can help you if you’re into playin’ music.

But it all works out, and it makes us sound like we got an original sound, and we ain’t copyin’ nobody. Hey, even if we did, we couldn’t sound like nobody else! It’s hard enough for us to sound like us! 

Tondeleo: It has been a few months since I have been able to post a blog for Doc. I have been busy with work and travel. 

Last week, I was able to get a few days in the Washington, DC area, and visited Doc and Marilyn. As you may know, Marilyn got married last September to David, and they moved to the Eastern Shore of Maryland.

Fortunately, she was visiting Doc when I was there for a few days.

Doc: Tondy, we just played a few jobs where there was people with a lot of money and nice cars and they was real nice to us. 

One was a lady’s 80th birthday party. Her grown kids threw it for her. They had a car show at it and everything. When we pulled up in my old Chevy panel truck, I saw all those nice cars with pretty paint and shiny rims and chromed out motors and thought, “Uh oh. They are gonna make me park out in the back!”

But once we got all the ‘quipment outta the back, the guy whose house it was asked me to park my old truck right out there with all those nice hot rods! I was really surprised, cause this truck ain’t never been waxed and only washed maybe twice in the last couple of years. But he let me pull it right out there in the line with the nice cars! And people took pictures of it, just like they did the other cars!

Then when we was settin’ up, I found out there was a good handful of guitar players and musicians there, too! All I had brung with me was the homemade guitars. I don’t know why. I brung my two favorites, which I made a long time ago, and two smaller ones what I keep in the truck. You need smaller guitars when you’re playing out on the streets, or travelin’. You ain’t got room for full size ones. 

It’s cheapest just to make ‘em yourself outta old parts and boxes. I keep the one what is made from a tackle box in regular tuning and the other little one in a open tuning for slide guitar and blues. The lady who lived there took pictures and sent them to us in a e-letter. 

I figured those guys with all that money was gonna laugh us off the property when they saw those old home made guitars what was made outta trash. But NO! They was real nice about it. People was even takin’ pictures of ‘em. That made me feel real good.
We had Marilyn down for the weekend, and Buttermilk Wade was on the lead guitar, and Lump was on the harp and K.I. on the drums. That is pretty much our line up these days. We are lucky to have a good handful of musicians to pick from and who can be available. 

The people there was real nice and it was a good party and we all ate a lot of food. They had a little bit of everything there. Nobody got too drunk, and there was no fightin’ which is always a mark of a classy party.

But we was all amazed that people kept asking about those guitars and takin’ pictures! Well, I know this: If we’d had nice guitars and good equipment, and nice clothes, ain’t nobobdy woulda been takin’ pictures!

Oh yeah – the other thing is that when they see those crappy looking guitars and old amps, they figure we’re gonna sound like garbage. So when we don’t sound like garbage, they all are surprised and then they think we are good. Those guitars sound GOOD though, Tondy, they was just cheap to make, that’s all.

Tondeleo: I was going through some of my recordings of talks with Doc and ran across this short little story. It typifies Doc's sense of humor and initial aggressive attitude, which mellows if you don't overreact immediately.

A lot of what Doc says is purely for effect, or because he likes to hear it said, and nobody else is saying it. Here’s an example is:

Doc: "So the boss man is tryin' to get me an' the other boys what worked there to come in on Saturdays and Sundays cause he cain't figure out how to make enough money Monday through Friday.

And that's with him already over charging the customers, and payin' us as little as he can get by with, and even then not payin' us our full paychecks every week. And that was only payin’ us minimum wage. You can’t live on minimum wage even if you got maximum hours. When they keep you broke, Tondy, they got you over a barrel.

So he says to us on Friday afternoon, as we was pickin' up our pay, "Hey, y'all's comin' in to work tomorrow and Sunday. Everybody is. Be here at 8 o’clock."

The other guys just moaned under their breath, but I weren't comin' in. I had a lady's car to fix on Saturday, and needed to go to the laundromat on Saturday nite. Sunday morning I was helpin' my buddy pack his things up, over to the trailer park so he could move, Sunday afternoon, I was invited to a Gospel concert and picnic with free food. I like Gospel music, and I like free food. Them church women can COOK! ANd they usually give out doggie bags full of leftovers, what become my lunch the next week. I ain't had no time to come in on Saturday or Sunday, Tondy.

So I said to the Boss Man: "I ain't comin' in. I ain't got time to work here for you seven days a week."

Boss Man points to a poster on his office wall. One of them ones with a picture of a eagle on a mountain and then at the bottom has a fancy sayin'. He had a lot of them posters what is made so bosses can take a vantage of they's workers.

He says, "Look at that, Doc. It says, 'There is no "I" in team.' What do you think of that? It isn't about YOU it is about US. We're a team and there is no I in team. You HAVE to make time to come in and work with the team.”

Suddenly I heard myself sayin' "MAKE time? Make time? Well, in the word 'time' there's a I and a ME, so I guess I am gonna have to quit to go work for ME, if you start this workin' all the TIME stuff."

An' you know what? He let us all not HAVE to work on Saturday an' Sunday, if we already had plans. An' he asked us not to plan much for the next two weekends. We could handle that, since he was givin’ us notice.

But sometimes bosses know what they’re gonna do and they like to show their power by not letting the workers know til the last minute.  He were a pretty good ol' boy after all, if you pushed him. No doubt. But you had to push him. A lot of bossmen are like that.

An’ I admit, I WERE kinda scared for a minute he was gonna fire me for sayin' that!

When I heard that come out of my mouth, I was scared, cause after the work on that lady’s car, I didn’t have no other work at the garage at the moment. I didn’t have no gigs to play, it was too cold and rainy to go to DC and sit out on the sidewalk and play… and the rent was due the next week. The landlord likes it when I work!

But somebody needed to say it and I guess it fell to me. That happens a lot. There’s something what needs to be said, and nobody’ll say it, and then I hear it come outta my mouth.

Tondeleo: On the side of the bonnet (in the US, it is called a “hood”) of Doc’s panel van (in the US, it is called a “panel truck”) is signwritten “We do “not” play bluegrass, so do not ask.”

The panel van has been in Doc’s family since his father bought it in the 1950’s. It has been driven and parked for sometimes years at a time, depending on the repairs needed and the amount of money available, for decades.

Doc has recently begun driving it again, and we will definitely interview him to find out the details on this interesting and unusual (and very fast) vehicle. He has put some kind of huge engine in it.

My curiosity was piqued by the phrase about not playing bluegrass music, so do not ask. He has explained to me at times what the difference is between the kind of country music that he and his friends play and bluegrass music. I understand the basics of what he is talking about, but sometimes I must confess that the line is very blurred to me.

I asked Doc if we could talk about bluegrass music just ONE more time, and for him to clarify for me what bluegrass is and isn’t, in his mind, and in the minds of his friends.

Tondeleo: Doc, your truck has written on it, “We do not play bluegrass, so do not ask.” Why is that?

Doc: Because we do not play bluegrass. I don’t want people asking us if we play it.

Tondeleo: But why do you think that people would even ASK you if you play bluegrass? That seems a bit odd, to me…

Doc: I ain’t know, exactly. But like, I can go to a blues club, and when I walk in with my guitar, someone’ll say something about it being a blues club, not a bluegrass club. I have to let them know I ain’t play no bluegrass.

Tondeleo: Could be the way you dress? You don’t DRESS like people would expect a person to dress who plays the blues and the kinds of music you play. You DO look more like you would play bluegrass…

Doc: The way I dress? The way I dress is I get up in the morning and put my clothes on. Then I wear ‘em till I go to bed at night. What is bluegrass about that?

Big Dave: Yeah. If you play blues they expect you to be wearin’ a pork pie hat and sunglasses, like you’re an old man in the 1950’s. Or Hawaiian shirts. We ain’t dress up like that. We aint from Hawaii. We wear the clothes we got on. Mostly work clothes ‘cause we work hard.

Doc: People sees us and thinks they know what kind of music we play by lookin’ at us. Sometimes, people calls us on the phone or reads the side of my truck about us playin’ at festivals, or BBQ’s or pig pickin’s and such, and they ask if we play bluegrass. We don’t. So, I put that on there to stop ‘em afore they get started. That’s been on there a long time, Tondy. A LONG time. What’s new on that truck is my 406 motor.

Now, we play old COUNTRY music, like Hank Sr, Hank Snow, Jimmie Rodgers, Patsy Cline, Webb Pierce and them. But we ain’t play bluegrass.

Mostly with bluegrass, Tondy, it’s not what folks in the mountains is sittin’ around playin’. Bluegrass is more what people what’s moved away from the mountains is sittin’ around playin’. My daddy said there weren’t even such thing as bluegrass till about 1945. He ain’t never heard nothing like that growin’ up and neither did his daddy. He said Bill Monroe come up with bluegrass during the war [WW2].

Big Dave: Mostly people now what plays bluegrass take lessons, and try to learn to play like someone else. If they’re a banjo player, and I know a boy what is one, and they all want to play like someone else. Some of ‘em plays Earl Scruggs style, or Keith style or someone else they is copyin’. Note for note, lick for lick, tryin’ to sound like the record, or what they read in a music book.

Doc: Mountain folks ain’t do that. We ain’t do that, neither. We sing and play what we feel and it might or might not sound like anyone else and we aint tryin’ to. We’re doin’ the best we can to sound like whatever it is we sound like!

I mean, I LIKE how other people plays, but I ain’t copyin’ ‘em. Another thing is this, what is different. When folks what play the kind of stuff we play get together, we all got a part what we do. Like, I play good enough as a solo guitar player, meanin’ just me playin’ guitar. But I ain’t no LEAD guitar player at all. Big Dave is a good lead guitar player.

Here is the difference. I stick to playin’ rhythm guitar, and he sticks to playin’ lead. He plays the solo’s, I don’t. Marilyn sticks to playin’ harp and so forth.

Sometimes I play bass if they need it. But I ain’t play it like it’s a ‘coustic bass. It ain’t. I play like it is, a ‘lectric bass. But I stick to that. No bass solo’s comin’ outta me.

In bluegrass, it ain’t like that. They ALL want to play lead, and you can see ‘em movin’ all over the stage, each one tryin’ to move up to the mike – they ain’t allowed to use electric guitars and banjos and all that, they have to stand in front of a mike – but they all have to take turns at the mike, movin’ up to play a solo and then movin’ back so someone else can play a solo. It is all solo artists, pretty much. The faster they play, the better. We ain’t do that. We pretty much are slow compared to bluegrass. I’m slow compared to myself!

Big Dave: It is all music from the mountains, what we play and what they play,but it is all different. But we don’t play JUST music what comes from the mountains. Matter of fact, I’m sick of mountain music. I got too many bad memories that I wanna forget. You gotta play more than that. Well, WE do.

Doc: Also, bluegrass uses three or four people singin’ at the same time and one of ‘em has that high lonesome sound. We ain’t got that. One person sings mostly, or maybe like me an’ Marilyn, you switch off from each other. You have a lead singer and maybe someone’ll sing a harmony if you need it.

When people talk about old time country music, and they are talkin’ about bluegrass, you know they is from the city. Old time country music would be more like Jimmie Rodgers, the Carters, the Stoneman’s and people like that. What we play got more in common with Jimmie Rodgers, than with Bill Monroe. Jimmie Rodgers is like 20 years afore Bill Monroe.

So we don’t play no bluegrass and don’t ask, Tondy.

Tondeleo: This is a continuation on Doc and Big Dave talking about how they do NOT play bluegrass, and that not all rural Americans even LIKE bluegrass.

Doc: Tondy, like we been sayin’, not all mountain people plays bluegrass or even likes it as much as city people does.

Some of the places we play at when we was growin’ up and where we plays now when we go back down home, don’t allow no bluegrass, no country western and no electric guitars. Some songs ain’t got no instruments. Just sung. Some of the work songs and the sad songs is just sung straight from the heart. I do that sometimes.

This ain’t music for sellin.’ It’s gospel spirituals, work songs, coal minin’ songs and such. But up here, we play more songs what people want to hear. And we ain’t about goin’ out an’ showin’ our shame.

Big Dave: Yeah, we play what we got to play here, and we still draw the line ourselves on what we play. Old country, blues roots, Gospel and things like that. But we don’t do no new country western or bluegrass. Of course, we ain’t no GOOD at bluegrass! We don’t play it! (laughs)

Me and Doc, we like electric guitars and our friends do, because we like to be able to play loud and we like the tone that you get on a tube amp. We like a little distortion, but even that is the music we grew up playin’ with our friends and neighbors. You can play a acoustic guitar into a mike like they do at a lot of the festivals and places we play, but it just sounds like a louder acoustic guitar, which is what they want.

Doc: We like overdrive, Tondy! But we also grew up with fiddles, and I like fiddles if played right, and banjo’s and such. I like a mandolin ok. A banjo with bad tone don’t set well with me. If a banjo aint played right, it sounds like a bunch of bees stingin’ me in the ears.

But a lot of folks down home and in a lot of places ain’t got no electric, so they gotta play music without it. I take my ‘coustic guitar and dobro when I go down there, unless I know I’m goin’ where there is ‘lectric.

Marilyn: I like playin’ harp. That runs in our family for back to my great grand dad and Doc thinks my great great grand dad. I like a dulcimer, too. Doc has one that he strung with guitar strings and plays with a bottleneck slide sometimes.

Another thing what runs deep is dancin.’ My aunt does flatfoot and cloggin’ but I can’t do none of that. I can yodel, and always could, but she cain’t yodel!!! Uncle Doc can yodel, but he don’t do it too much. 

Doc: A lot of the mountain roots music and blues roots is about the same thing. Bein’ broke. Havin’ a mean boss or bad landlord what don’t understand. Bein’ sick. Bein’ cheated on. Your loved one dyin’. Some is about just bein’ sick of this earthly life and wantin’ to just go ahead and go to Heaven. All the songs is about the basic thing about bein’ human and what goes on in your heart in hard times.

A lot of the sound comes from church where it gets blended, black and white folks, singin’ the same songs, and we pick up a little bit from each other, but we don’t copy no one. Most of us, at least my people is Pentecostal, too. Pentecostal folks whether white or black usually got a heart for music and have a bunch of good musicians and singers.

Tondeleo: Isn’t any music that’s made with banjo’s and mandolins by definition, “bluegrass?”

Big Dave: No. There’s differences. Bluegrass is more modern, like for city people that maybe came from the country and were missing home, and bluegrass was a way to sell that sound. I don’t know. I like Dawg Music, which has then same instruments, but isn’t bluegrass and ain’t quite country. David Grisman does it.

Doc: Well, as I see it, mountain music, roots music is more about bein’ music to dance to, more about a steady beat. That’s what we do in everything we do, keep a good beat. Mountain music uses more open tunings, which blues roots does, too. Both uses Open G a lot.

I grew up listenin’ on the radio and on the records when Daddy  could get them, and sometimes live to the Carter Family, the Mainer's, the Stoneman's, the Delmore's and the Blue Sky Boys,the Carter Brothers and folks like them.

I spent some time with Donna Stoneman and know her to be a good Christian and nice person. Her sister Ronnie was on Hee Haw. But all them people ain’t bluegrass. Mountain music and roots, I call it. We like that ok, heck we grew up on it. But we also needed to get away from it when we got out of there and done some travellin’ and didn’t want to be hillbillies.

Big Dave. He’s right, Tondy.

Marilyn: We live in the country and we ain’t got much money, but we ain’t hillbillies.

Tondeleo: One thing that fascinated me when I first began working around real American rural musicians is that they did not all play bluegrass music. That is the stereotype that we hold of them: blowing on moonshine jugs, playing banjo’s, mandolins, jaw harps, violins and guitars.

When I met Doc and his friends several years ago, they described what they played as “downhome country blues roots.” It is a mix of country, blues and a fair bit of early rock and roll. I was curious as to how this fit in with the stereotype that we have of these people playing nothing but bluegrass.

Following is an interview I had with Doc and Big Dave a couple of years ago.

Doc: Why don’t we play bluegrass? Well, we ain’t got no banjo’s or violins or mandolins first off, Tondy. We got guitars, I got a bass and we got amps. Bluegrass don’t like basses and amps and electric guitars. But we do.

My family was tryin’ to get away from all that when we was comin’ up. People called us hillbillies and my Grand dad said we needed to quit lookin’ and talkin’ like hillbillies or we ain’t never gonna have anything or amount to nothin.’

Big Dave: I don’t like bluegrass. Ain’t nobody told me to. It just reminds me of my old man. He listened to bluegrass all the time. If it wasn’t his friends comin’ by and playin’ it at the house, it was on the radio. It got bad memories for me. It gets on my nerves.

Tondeleo: Bluegrass gets on your nerves? I thought all rural Americans thrived on bluegrass!

Big Dave: Well, you thought wrong, little buddy.

Doc: We don’t play bluegrass. I never learned it. When I was comin’ up I learned from my grand dad and uncles, and their friends. Some was white and some was black. We all learned each other’s songs. But he steered us away from bluegrass.

I been to places where all they play is bluegrass, and I can be playin’ along, and some office boy what took “bluegrass lessons” will watch me a few minutes and then tell me that I am not playin’ “bluegrass chords.” Bluegrass chords? What’s that? I never learnt no bluegrass chords. I ain’t never took lessons.

I learned a lot of what I play from being in the drink houses. That was whites and blacks and mixed people. Just poor people what had problems and still wanted to sing. Mostly they ain’t know what they was playin’ as far as chords go. They just figured out what sounded good.

I ain’t know the names of all the chords. I know more than some people does, as for the names, but not all of them.I just play what I seen other people play an’ I have some what I figured out, and I slide ‘em up and down the neck to make different ones. That’s what mostly I seen comin’ up.

We’d take our guitars and go to the drink house and eat and talk and play music.

Tondeleo: Drink houses. What are drink houses?

Doc: A drink house is what they have a lot of down south, in North Carolina especially. If they ain't a bar in the area where you can go down for a drink or play some music, a person might just open their house up as a drink house.

You can’t just go and hang out in a bar all night if you ain’t drinkin’ and if you’re dirty from work, they ain’t like that too much neither. A drink house is where poor folks go to hang out and talk and drink and relax.

It's just a person’s house, and they might have they livin’ room or back room with a little bar in it, and a few beers in the ‘frigerator, and maybe a few bottles of liquor in the cabinet. You give 'em a couple of bucks and they give you a shot of whiskey or a beer. Maybe even a dollar might get you a sip, if all you got is a dollar. You can just hang out there and talk of play music or whatever you want, as long as you're not causing any trouble.

People in the neighborhood'll come by. Some will pull up in their car and come in just for a drink and leave. Others hang out there all day or evening.It’s a place to hang out, to talk, meet people and swap songs and learn a little by watchin’ what the other guy is doin’ and listenin’ to how he is playin’ and then do it yourself. You can learn a lot that way.

Sometimes they got a radio on, and you can learn some songs that way. That’s where some of the songs we play come from. That and old records we found here and there.

Big Dave: Yeah. I used to go to drink houses when I was in western North Carolina. It was just a cheap place to go and waste some time, and eat a sandwich and play music.

Some of 'ems open just some days or some evenin's and others is open day or night, seven days a week. Some's got a poker game in the back room or out on the picnic table in the back yard in the summer.

Some got a room fixed up where you can play music inside, with a little stage area over in the corner.

Some sell drugs, some don't. Some sell about anything a person could want, if they know you or you is family to a friend of theirs.

I never went for that. I just went for a sandwich, some music and some place to go before going back to my room to sleep.

Doc: You ain’t got to be a drunk or druggie to go to drink houses. I went for the food and music mostly and people what don’t have any money or good clothes got to be able to go someplace, too after work. Where else are we gonna go?

And that’s where we learnt to play and where we learnt the songs we sing. A bit of everything. Hank Williams, Webb Pierce and all them from my grand dad and uncles and they’s friends, and then John Lee Hooker, BB King, Albert King and a bunch of others from the drink houses.

Really, you got to know all of it so you can make a few dollars. We play some places where it is mostly white people and they want that country music what they call roots. So we play it. Some people think we only play country.

Some places we play is like we are the only white folks there. We play blues; John Lee Hooker, Artie White and BB King and all those kinds of songs there. They ain’t never hear us play country.

Sometimes we play where it is mixed and we do mixed music there. A bit of blues, a bit of country. Whatever they want. We play Gospel too, Tondy! We learnt that at church. But also at drink houses and from family. Most poor folks go to church some time in their life, because life is hard and they need help from the Lord. I need help from the Lord.

And me and Marilyn like singin’ and playin’ Gospel music. It reaches down deep inside you.

Tondeleo: I know, I’ve heard you do that, and I quite like it, I do…

Doc: We like that Gospel, Tondy. Not the new stuff. The old stuff. When a man is poor and can’t deal with his problems, he can turn to drinkin’ and drugs, or he can turn to the Lord. I been turnin’ to the Lord when I get down in the mully grubs, and sometimes I can just pick up my guitar and sing a while and I feel all better. We play Gospel around the house a lot. A whole lot.

Tondeleo: One thing I have noticed at home in England and everywhere else I have travelled is that people want to stand out and have their own personal style.That goes for people with money and education as well as for old age pensioners and even the homeless. There is a human quest for individuality that cannot be suppressed.

I was talking about this with Doc at Scott’s II Store one afternoon, as I was noticing and commenting on the way the various patrons expressed themselves with their clothing, their jewelry, accessories, hats and their cars and trucks. When the conversation was in full swing, I realised that I needed to get out my digital recorder and capture some of these thoughts.

What prompted me getting out my recorder was a Cadillac out in the car park of Scott’s that was pulling out as we went out to Doc’s truck for Marilyn to get her harps. It was evident that the car's owner didn’t have much money, but that he had a sense of style and clearly a sense of pride – and his car very much stood out from the others!

Doc pointed out all the changes that the owner had made:

Doc: Lookit that, Tondy! You ain’t got nothin’ like that over there to that England, I guarantee it! He got a Corvette hood scoop on it.Painted his grille gold. It’s just spray paint, but it makes it stand out. He got him some Wal Mart wheelcovers on it – and they ain’t match each other, but at least he’s tryin’.

Tondeleo: Well, ummm, you’re right Doc. I have never seen anything quite like this in England. It is sort of an American CHAV vehicle, perhaps. I don’t really know what to compare it to. It DOES make one sit up and take notice, I confess!

Doc: Yeah, Tondy, You gotta stand out. This boy’s standin’ out!

Marilyn:I think it stands out in a yucky way.It’s too much. Well, at least for me. I bet the cops could spot him a mile away, too! He probally ain’t thought of that.

Doc: Well, sometimes you wanna stand out and sometimes you wanna blend in. You can figure that out by walkin’ in the woods. Most the time, for survival, you gotta blend in. That’s what keeps the predators from noticin’ you and eatin’ you. Most everything in nature wears camo (camouflaged clothing). Snakes, turtles, frogs, deer, birds, almost everything. They need to blend in so they don’t get eaten.

But then, sometimes they gotta stand out for protection. Like a peacock blowin’ his tail all out big to look bigger than he really is – and prob’ly for standin’out so the girl peacocks notice him and think they want him ‘cause he’s a big man! Bull frogs does it, too! So they is two laws in the jungle. Blend in so you don’t get eaten and sometimes stand out to scare off enemies.

Look at him! He got what…five antennas on the back! And American flags! And magnets, too! He is scarin’ off the competition. I mean a dude with a regular car can’t compete! He is sayin’ somethin’ here, Tondy! Puttin’ ‘em on notice! He got a lot of work in that car an’ you can tell he loves it! That’s his baby!

Look how proud he is! An’ he OUGHT to be proud. That’s a car to remember! It ain’t about the money, it’s about the love you put in it. If it was mine, I’d be proud of it!

I’m proud of what I got, even though it ain’t worth much. At least it’s mine.

Me an’ Marilyn does the same thing when we’re playin. When we’re playin’ in the streets for money, we need to stand out enough so people stops to listen an’ give us money an’ if they really like us to ask for a card or invite us to play at a event or party or something. Lotta ties you gotta play ‘coustic guitar when buskin.’ BUt I use my drum box with the tambourine on it for a beat. That helps.

We make eye contact with ‘em an’ I’ll make up some words to the song I’m singin’ to put them in it:

Like: “I see that lady there with the sunglasses watchin’ me

She’s reachin’ in her wallet and gettin'’ out some money!

An’ she walks over here… an’ she puts it my case

That’s a good lookin’ woman

she puts a smile on my face – thank you ma’am!”

I’ll do somethin’ like that for anyone I can catch the eye of and it gets a crowd, an’ a crowd gets you money an’ bookin’s and friends. You gotta have friends ‘cause they pass the word around about you.

We stand out by lookin’ happy and bein’ high energy an’ ‘proachable. Marilyn kinda dances. We have dance contests on the street, too. Ain’t nothin’ funnier than havin’ a dance contest out on the streets an’ watchin’ men dance! And it gets a crowd.

When we’re playin’ and there is other bands, we don’t never do songs that they would do. We ain’t no 70’s cover band. We does mostly old stuff from the 40s and fifties. Nothin’ much newer than’ 1960, far as I know. That’s cause all we had was old music what other people didn’t want, when I grew up, or old songs what the people round us sang an’ played. We ain’t no human jukebox. We play songs what most bands don’t play so we don’t overlap what they is doin’ and that way the other bands likes us, too. That’s part of standin’ out.

Like, we bring along Thurman Goodlett to dance for us whenever we can. That boy can dance like Michael Jackson with ants in his pants! That helps us stand out. There is lotsa bands out there and they’s all better than us, so we gotta put on a show, if we’re gonna stand out. You got to stand out, Tondy. And people like a show. It ain’t so much about the music as it is about the show. Standin’ out is the show.

Marilyn: Sometimes it embarrassin’ but you gotta do it. Doc says if it don’t take guts, it ain’t worth doin’ and you gotta be bold, Tondy. Stand up and stand out is what I always say.

Tondeleo: As you know, Doc and Marilyn play outdoors frequently, and when it is warm weather, and they have bills to pay, they will be found outdoors on a regular basis, singing, playing and passing the hat. Sometimes their friend Thurman Goodlett dances for them, which helps get a crowd and increases the income. He is a fantastic dancer and is very professional. From their outdoors playing, they get asked to play at various events and venues.

Doc says that when they play outside it is "givin' away free samples," so people will let them play at other places. This is how they get most their gigs at BBQ's, family reunions, outdoor parties, and clubs and even festivals. People hear them, like their sound and find out how likeable both Doc and Marilyn are, and that they will play almost anywhere.

One Sunday, back in March, they played indoors at Scott's II in Welcome Maryland, along with Joey Tippet and the California Ramblers. The California Ramblers are a popular bluegrass band who also donated their afternoon to raise funds for a local young mother who was diagnosed with leukemia a year ago. She was pregnant, and had some problems and they discovered that she had leukemia. Marilyn said that Katie, the young mother, lost her baby, and had a month of chemo treatments, and then "the Lord touched her body" and there is no sign of leukemia, but there are other problems.

Marilyn: Tondy, when Katie got the leukemia, all of us was prayin' and askin' the Lord to touch her body and heal her. She prayed too. She believes in healin' like we do. At the end of last March, they tested her and the leukemia was gone! No sign of it! They let her out of the hospital!

But the doctor what takes care of her after wards said leukemia doesn't just go away - she ain't never heard of the Lord healin' people - so she started Katie on chemo again. And every month they tested her for cancer, and guess what, Tondy? NO CANCER! Not even one cell!

But still her her doctor says she MIGHT have some cancer there and they just can't find it! So they keep her on that chemo and stereo-roids, anyway - but no sign of cancer cause the Lord healed her.

She got money problems cause she got two little boys she's tryin' to raise, an' she can't work a job, but still has to pay the rent and the light bill and gas for the car, and food.

So they had a fundraiser for her and asked us to help out. It was us and some bluegrass bands. We ain't exactly into bluegrass, so we din't know how it would be, and we didn't know if they would hate us because we play country roots blues and Doc uses a electric guitar, and bluegrass don't allow no electric guitars or drums, an' Doc also brought his box what he rigged up with a foot pedal to sound like drums. I like playin' indoors.

Well, it went GOOD! A lot of people came. The bluegrass bands was good, too. One was Joey Tippett and the California Ramblers! They was really good and they was nice to me and Uncle Doc. They let us use their mic, which was nice. They did a couple sets and we did a couple of sets, and another bluegrass band did, and also a rock band called Naked! They was all boys but I thank God they was not naked! They would've embarrassed themselves for sure, Tondy! But they sounded good. And kept their clothes on. That name they got for their band, Naked, Doc said is just boys bein' boys.

I heard that they raised about two thousand dollars to help her pay the rent. Churches are helping her out with food and such. It's really hard when a person ain't got no income and all their friends are poor, Tondy. But when everybody pitches in, and bakes cakes and pies for auctionin' off and brings in other things to sell, it helps. We all pull together. Even the bands played for free to help out. And Uncle Doc bought a fishin' rod and lures,and a camo fishin' stool to sit on, an' he don't even need 'em! He said he just wanted to help Katie pay her rent, and he had $30 on him. He has a soft heart, Tondy, but don't tell him I told you. But he's a softy inside!

Tondeleo: Marilyn gave me some pictures from this event that were emailed to her so here they are. She also got some video from it that I put it on my Youtube account for them.

Tondeleo: In my last post, Doc and Big Dave were guzzling "skin fast drinks" (Slimfast) in an effort to get skinny fast. I spoke with Doc on my mobile last night, and he got me up to date on his and Marilyn's activities. I haven't been able to visit them in the States this Summer like I would like to, and have been staying in touch with my mobile, and recording our calls, and Marilyn emails pictures to me from time to time.

Doc: Well, Tondy, me an' Big Dave gave up on that skinfast. We drank about two cases a day of that stuff and it didn't make neither one of us skinny. I done lost maybe 5 pounds, but also I was workin' a lot and it's been hot so I might've just sweated off five pounds (that's less than half stone). Big Dave got tired of drinkin' it and he gave up, too. I think that Skinfast is more made for women.

Well, you know me an' Marilyn went over to Alabama for a week an' had a good time an' met some good people. Their cookin' is pretty good down there an' everywhere you go is Waffle Houses so we ate good. I like a good sit-down restaurant when we is travelin'.

Waffle House has good food pretty reasonable and they got enough different kinds of food that you ain't got to eat no where else. You can eat there mornin' noon and night and it is always pretty good. Matter o' fact, Tondy, you can go to a Waffle House after playin' somewhere an' they will still be open. Ain't nobody rushin' you outta there, neither. Marilyn likes 'em real good, too. They got a lot of her favorites there, an' if she brings some of her friends along, it's cheap enough where they can pay for they's own food an' I ain't got to ante up for it.

You name it, they got it all. Eggs, ham, steak, grits, bacon, hamburgers, fries, waffles, of course, an' pancakes an' ice cream. They got anything a man could want. I really ain't know why they got so many other restaurants out there, 'ceptin some people from up north ain't ascovered Waffle Houses yet. But down south, that is pretty much all you see the locals eatin' at.

We played in some places in Alabama and also outside and the people liked us real good. They was pretty good to us in the money department, but mostly they ain't much money in Alabama.

We went to Florida like I said, an' we got a real good response there. They ain't never heard no one what plays an' sings like me an' Marilyn, so they treated us real good an' got us in some indoor places an' clubs an' venues. We stayed down there a while but then got homesick, plus I had some jobs to do back home, fixin' cars so we had to come back up here to Maryland. One thing I don't like is that they ain't no Waffle Houses here what I know of. But I was glad to see my dogs again an' Marilyn was glad to see her boyfriend again. That long legged crawdaddy missed her!

That boy what she is seein' is six foot two an' is crazy 'bout her. He is all right. If he weren't he wouldn't be seein' her. She is picky about men an' has higher standards than God almost - well, maybe she DOES have higher standards than God, 'cause HE will forgive some things that Marilyn won't, I'll tell you what! She ain't too forgivin' when it comes to how a man can act when he is her beau.

Well, that's it, Tondy. We got some inside places to play at an' a couple parties an' two vestibules (festivals) in the next few weeks, so it should be good.