Doc Stevens

Tondeleo: I've been real fortunate getting Doc and Marilyn to agree to talk about their Hawaii trip that their friend Billy footed the bill for. They were embarrassed about going to Hawaii because neither of them knew where it was before going, while they were there or indeed to this day. They might mention that they "went down to Hawaii," but they don't talk about it. 

They loved it, and Marilyn is certain that Hawaii is "like Heaven only shorter." Their friends who do know about Hawaii don't believe Doc and Marilyn really went there. The others of their friends, which is most of them, may have heard of Hawaii but don't believe that Doc and Marilyn could have possibly been there.  And, if they DID, how did they get back?


 Doc: One thing we liked about Hawaii was the people. Not the tourists but the locals. You can spot the tourists - their clothes and cameras around their necks and they're spending money everywhere. Loaded down with shopping bags.

Not just American tourists, Tondy, but they had tourists of every color and country under the sun! I didn't know there was that many kinds of people anywhere exceptin' Washington, DC.

Marilyn: Yeah, it was all kinds of tourists. We didn't have any cameras or any money! Billy paid for our tickets and motel but we had to come up with all our own money for food and stuff. We had to sing and pass the hat and eat the cheapest food we could find - people didn't think we were tourists. I think they thought we were just homeless. Like tourists that got there and ran out of money.  But not drug addicts. We're not skinny enough for people to think that. There's a lot of homeless people in Hawaii.

Doc: I was glad I brought my acoustic guitar. The locals was real nice to us and helped us out with whatever we needed. They didn't care that we were Gringos. Sometimes they would come and sing with us or play their itty bitty guitars. They would tell us places that was best for singing and passing the hat. They was real good to us like that. Plus, they was a lot of fun.

Their dogs was real nice, too, Tondy. But dogs are pretty much the same everywhere. It made us miss our dog, Dale Junior what we had to put down last Summer cause he got blind and deaf and couldn't walk anymore. He was 16. That's pretty old for a American Bulldog.

Marilyn: This one gal, Louisa, she took us under her wing and invited us to her family reunion party and helped us out almost every day. Their party was like three days, Tondy!

Doc: And boy could she sing! She had a set of lungs on her, I tell you! And she was real good to Marilyn. Helped Marilyn meet people and chased away the boys what was comin' on to her. 

Marilyn: We sang and we laughed and sang and ate and sang and laughed some more! Then we ate some more and sang some more and laughed some more... then we ate some more, and everybody fell asleep and the next day we did the same thing! Ate and sang and laughed and ate and sang and laughed... we had FUN!

Doc: A lot of singin' laughin' and eatin' went on, all right!

Tondeleo: As you know, I've been trying to get Doc and Marilyn to open up a bit more about the two weeks they spent in Hawaii last year, courtesy of a friend who wanted them to get a break, and catch a broader view of life than just the southeastern part of the United States.

I was out of the country when all this happened, and they had never mentioned it. Only by chance Doc mentioned it a few months ago and then wouldn't talk about it anymore. Marilyn was the same way. If pushed, they may talk about it a few minutes and then change the subject. Fortunately they do have a few photos that were taken of them on Marilyn's phone.

So tell us a bit more about your trip to Hawaii. Like, how was the hotel?

Marilyn: It was beee-YOUtiful, Tondy! We were up on the fourth floor and could see mountains and the beach and the water! I took pictures on my phone of the view looking off the balcony. 

Doc: It was all right. I got to play guitar a lot. I missed my panel truck. I don't usually go no where without it. But I couldn't bring it with me. Just a picture I brought in my guitar case.

As for the motel, first thing I do when I go into a motel room is if it's summer I turn on the AC full blast and if it's winter, I jack up the heat.

Tondeleo: And why is that, Doc?

Doc: 'Cause I ain't got AC at my place and my heat aint that good neither. If I can go to a motel room and get heat and AC and a good hot bath, that's all the vacation I need.

But guess what, Tondy? They didn't HAVE any heat or AC in the motel room! I looked all over for it and so did Marilyn and it wasn't there! I'm thinkin' what kind of cheap hellhole did Billy book us into? Marilyn called the front desk and found out something crazy. NO heat or AC!

Marilyn: You know why? Because the lady at the front desk said it doesn't get hot enough for AC and doesn't get cold enough for heat! She said it's about 72 degrees year round so we don't need heat or AC!

Doc: Well they hadn't met a poor man before. We don't care if we NEED heat or AC. We just use it cause we ain't got it at home and it's free with the room! If it's Summer and is 72 degrees, I'm still gonna use the AC! I'm paying for it - well, Billy did this time. I might have it down to 60 degrees just because I can!

If it was Winter, I'd set it to 80 or 85 degrees because nothin' says vacation like getting good and warm in the winter. I mean, I aint really had no real vacations, but I HAVE stayed in plenty of motels before.

Tondeleo: So, with no heat and no AC, were you comfortable?

Marilyn: It was wonderful, Tondy! I think it is what Heaven will be like, only shorter. 

Doc: Yeah, I was comfortable. It just took a while to get used to having the windows open like it was at home. Plus, they had them jealousy windows what wind out. that was different. Also, the screen door with bars on it, so you could have it open all night but no one could get in and rob you. But you gotta play and sing quieter 'cause everyone else got their door open, too.

But, I liked it, yeah.

Tondeleo: One reason I like coming to America is the cheap prices compared to the USA. I can buy used cameras for about half of what we'd pay in the UK. Being used, there's no import duty to pay. Cameras, musical instruments and other things that can be flown back to UK can make a trip to America a very good deal.

My mate Cyril had this aspect of a visit to the states foremost in his mind in addition to the experience of visiting America and also being able to stay at Doc's place for free, and having no food expense. He is pretty adventurous when it comes to food, and likes organic. That helped him be prepared for eating deer, rabbit, squirrel and a lot of fish. Also, fresh raised veggies. 

But what got him most excited was being able to shop on Craigslist for prices on American guitars and equipment for well less than half the UK prices. 

Doc: Well, Tondy, your buddy Cyril's a happy camper now! He found a Les Paul, a real one, and got a good deal on it.

Tondeleo: I'm not sure what you're saying, Doc. I guess happy camper means he is glad to be sleeping outside... but I'm not sure what a Les Paul is - real or fake.

Doc: He ain't sleepin' outside. It just means he's happy. He ain't really campin'. That's just something to say. But he got a real Les Paul. that's a guitar. Made by Gibson.

Tondeleo: Are there "not real" Les Pauls? Imaginary ones?

Doc: YES, there's Les Paul's what ain't real! There's fake ones, there's copies, there's Epiphone ones, there's counterfeit ones made in China. All kinds of Les Pauls. But he got a real one. A real GIBSON Les Paul. Made in USA.

Tondeleo: OK... I hear you. Tell me about getting the real Les Paul. The Gibson one. Made in USA.

Doc: Last week Cyril was lookin' on the  'puter up to the Liberry on Craig's List of things for sale. He found a Les Paul on there, for sale in Arlington... over in Virginia. It was old, like ten years, but never been played. He had me call the guy first to ask him some questions.

Here's the story. The guy works for PBS makin' those Oldies Music Specials. He's a music history guy what used to work at the Smiths Onion [Smithsonian museum in Washington DC]. The PBS called him and gave him a job puttin' together those Oldies Music Specials. He was doin' one of those in Nashville and Gibson gave him some guitars to use as stage props. New Gibson guitars! As stage props, Tondy!

Tondeleo: Uhhh... that's unthinkable, Doc! Unconscionable!

Doc: Well, YEAH! Anyway, he was down there, doin' a country music special and Ricky Skaggs was there as a host or whatever the guy is what talks between the songs and 'splains them. Gibson gave this guy the Les Paul - this guy what doesn't even play guitar - and then Ricky Skaggs signed the case with a silver magic marker. So this guy over to Arlington was movin' down south somewhere and wasn't gonna take the guitar with him, so he was sellin' it. Aint never been played.

Me an' Cyril went over there, an' met the guy. He wanted $700 for it, which ain't bad. Cyril was all like "can I take that other bloke's name off the case?" I told him to deal with that later. I talked with the guy an' 'splained that Ricky Skaggs' name on that guitar case ain't mean nothin' to a 20 year old Brit who ain't never heard of Ricky Skaggs, so that ain't no sellin' point. Then I splained to him that Cyril's gonna have to pay $100 to take that guitar onto the plane to get it home. So if he charged Cyril $600 for it, plus the $100 Cyril would pay to get it home, that's still gonna be $700 which is what he wanted anyway...

Tondeleo: And that guy WENT for that?

Doc: Well.. YEAH! It only makes sense. $700 for a $700 guitar. It's just he wasn't gettin' all $700.  He got $600, but he knew Cyril was paying $700, so it was fair. Cyril got that guitar and was happy as a clam, Tondy! His smile started on the back of his head and went all the way 'round to the front of his head and back to the other side of the back of his head! Good old USA! Well, for good deals, anyway.

He brought it home and tuned it up and then we went out and he played it at a couple gigs already.It sounds good, plays good and some people have told him to keep Ricky Skaggs' name on it, 'cause it makes it more interestin'. They splained to him who Ricky Skaggs is. Plus Cyril called his Dad over in England who not only knew who Ricky Skaggs is, but is a Ricky Skaggs fan and was real proud of his son over gettin' that guitar with Ricky Skaggs' havin' signed the case on it. So anyway, there you go. I'm gonna hang up and get him to teach me a few things while he's still here.

Tondeleo: Before my friend Cyril came to the States, his dad rang me up to ask if I could get Doc to teach his son a few things on the guitar. He said that his Cyril needed to learn how to strum better and how to keep better rhythm. I told him I would pass the message on to Doc. Then, after Cyril had been at Doc's a few days Doc rang me up, shocked at Cyril's guitar playing. Naturally I recorded the call as I always do with Doc or Marilyn - with their permission from when I first knew them.

Doc: Hey Tondy! You said Cyril's old man wanted me to teach Cyril how to play guitar a bit while he is here! I cain't teach that boy ANYTHING...

Tondeleo: Why is that, Doc? Is he that thick? You don't think he can learn anything at all?

Doc: NO! He is so GOOD I cain't teach him anything! The other night I handed him a guitar and picked up one of mine, and I figured I'd find out what level of a player he was. As soon as I started playin' he started knockin' out lead licks like he's been playin' 20 years!

I played blues. I played country. I played Gospel. Whatever I played, he played lead to it like he'd played nothin' BUT that kind of music all his life! He did it all and he did it right!

Tondeleo: Well, are you going to teach him how to strum better and keep better rhythm? 

Doc: NO! That boy don't ever need to strum anything! I called my buddy Big Dave last night and told him about Cyril, so he came over and went through the same thing, but different kinds of songs. He did rock, hard rock, soft rock, oldies rock and probally some disco. Not only did Cyril play all of them well, but he had the right tone and little details that make each of the different types of music stand out. I went in and listened to them and it sounded like he'd been playin' all those songs for years and years.

Big Dave asked him how he knew all them songs, and Cyril said he didn't know ANY of them! He said Big Dave just picked some good songs to play!  I ain't never heard nobody could play like that all my life.

Then, on Saturday, I took him to a country music jam, down to St. Mary;s county. I splained to him who Hank Sr was and Marty Robbins, and Webb Pierce and them boys, so he'd know somethin'. Sure 'nuff, when we got there, he started playin' and them old boys down there started askin' if he grew up playin' old school country music, or if his dad is a country music player. Cyril just said that he didn't grow up playin' it, that he really had just started! Yeh, he just started like an hour before!

That kid is a genius. We got bookin's comin' up with the Holy Ghost Band and I'm gonna bring him with us to play! If he would move to this country, someone would get that boy, take him to Nashville and put him in a box where all he had to do was play guitar every day! None of us has heard him hit a bad note yet. Not even one.

Tondeleo: I'll be sure and relay it to his dad that you are indeed working with him to help him play better...

Doc: Heck, I want HIM to indeed work with ME to help ME play better, Tondy! That boy is a musical genius! Gotta go now. I'm tryin' to get  him to give me a lesson! Marilyn made deer chili an' he's stuffin' himself with it. Plus he's on his fourth can of ginger ale.  I gotta catch him afore he passes out.

Tondeleo: I am attempting to catch up on Doc Stevens and Marilyn’s activities. I have a lot of recordings and notes to transcribe and will do my best to get caught up, at least to some degree.

A few weeks ago, they were playing in Washington, DC and were invited to play at a blues jam of the DC Blues Society. They, of course didn’t know anything about it, and followed someone up to the location and played a couple of songs.

Doc: Yeah, Tondy, we was playin’ at this place in DC up to Lincoln Park, on a Sunday afternoon, playin’ some gospel music. This little black lady – she was cute as a bug! – come up and danced with Thurman an’ then said we had to get our stuff and head outta there as soon as we could.

I asked her how come we gotta go an’ she said ‘cause she had called up to the DC Blues Society and tol’ them about us an’ wanted us to go meet those people. I ain’t never heard of a Blues Society afore, so I was ready to go! We didn’t know how to get there so she drove up there an’ had us follow her. I woulda definitely got lost if she hadn’t drove an’ have us follow her. It was a long ways from where we was in Lincoln Park.

The other guys in the band couldn’t go – we ain’t really a band, we just play music together – so just me and Marilyn and Thurman went up there.

Doc Stevens & Marilyn at The DC Blues Society

We followed her up there, and it was a room full of people all takin’ turns playin’ and singin.’ It was some real good talent in there, to be sure! All kinds of people playin’ blues.

Well, we hung aroun’ a bit an’ I wanted to just go ‘cause I was tired but Marilyn said we oughta stay since that lady invited us up there. I had one of my home made guitars with me, the one with the bass strings along with the regular strings, but then right afore we got up to play it fell and got knocked outta tune, so I had to use my old Fender Frankenphantom which is a guitar I made outta old parts. Some of the guys had been lookin’ at my box guitar and was waitin’ to hear how it sounded. I told them it sounded like a poor man’s guitar. The Frankenphantom soundslike a poor man’s guitar, too, ‘ cause it IS a poor man’s guitar. Two bass strings and four regular guitar strings.

So near the end, they called us up there an’ we sang an’ played a little bit. Our drummer, Welch Simmons couldn’t come up there with us, so they had a real good drummer there what played with us and done a real good job. We done a gospel song, cause it was Sunday an’ you oughta honor God at least one day a week.

Marilyn sang “Precious Lord, Take My Hand” and then we done “I Believe to My Soul.” Thurman was up there with us so he done a good man dance and ended doin’ the splits. Everybody loved that. He’s a good dancer, Tondy. You couldn’t have done the splits, not in jeans and work boots like he done.

They was all real nice to us an’ asked us to come back up, but it is more than a hour from here, so I don’t think we’ll be able to do it. I cain’t afford the gas to drive all the way up there an’ back. Not in my truck! But if we is ever up in that area again, we’re gonna try to find out where it is and go up there and get to know those folks. A lot of them asked for our cards what has our phone number on them.

I ain’t never seen that many folks in one room what played the blues so good. Never in my life, Tondy. Never.

 

By Tondeleo Lee Thomas

It’s been a few months since I’ve updated Doc’s blog. I have been busy with work and stuck in London. I am trying to catch up on his blog over the Summer.

I have been so bogged down with work that all I could do was post some vids that were sent to me of them on Youtube, but I’ve had no time for comments or blogging.

Last week I came to the States and have been catching up with Doc and Marilyn and their friends.

When I pulled up into their driveway, Marilyn came running out of the house to give me a hug and to tell me all the things that have happened since I had seen them last.

I pulled my digital recorder out of my pocket to make certain I could capture it all.

Marilyn: Tondy! Me and Doc got a band now! We ain’t mostly playin on the streets so much and we got more inside bookins. And we got real cards, too! And we been playin’ more gospel shows which I like better and things is goin good, Tondy!

Doc: Hey, Tondy – I thought you’d dropped of the face of the earth, been so long. Figured old England had swallowed you up.

Yeah, we got a band. Well, it ain’t really a band, it’s just a bunch of people we play music with, but it’s like a band. It’s a bunch of guys I been knowin’ but we started playin’ together here an’ there an’ people like it so we keep doin’ it.

Here’s who we got. We BEEN havin’ Thurman Goodlett as our man dancer an’ he still is with us. But now we got Homer and Wendell Green from Detroit, what is also called Motown. They come down here lookin’ for work an’ money ‘cause Detroit is broke.

Wendell got a deep voice and sings back up bass and some solo stuff. He come here first and got a job and a place to live and is a real hard worker.

Homer’s his little brother. He plays piano best you ever heard in your life. I ain’t never heard nobody no better. There weren’t no money to be made in Detroit unless you already got big money behind you so Homer come down here to see what he can do. He plays with us, and plays on his own and gives piano lessons, so he’s keepin’ his head above water.

Then we got Welch Simmons from Durham, North Carolina on the drums. He is a good man what also come up here lookin’ for work. They ain’t no work down there. But he got him a job up here and a place for him and his family so he’s doin’ all right. He is a real good drummer and keeps the rhythm right and tight like they say.

It’s a lot better with the piano and drums, Tondy. It frees me up a bit to not have to carry everything. You know, like when it’s just me an’ Marilyn, I’m playin’ the guitar, and also the bass with the two bass strings on the guitar, plus keepin’ the beat with the foot box with the tambourine what’s screwed to it. Now, I can put more into the singin’ and not be tryin’ to keep track of what I’m doin’ all the time.

Me an’ Marilyn still plays by ourselves a lot, but we got the band for places that want a bigger sound. All the guys is good guys what is livin’ right and trustin’ the Lord an’ tryin’ to do the right thing.

It ain’t like the old days when I used to play with guys what would be drunk and high an’ you ain’t knowin’ what they gonna do next. Nope, these guys is straight arrows an’ that makes it better. No cussin’ and fightin’ or anything like that. These is church goin’ guys, when they can make it. It’s a lot better, Tondy, for real. Wait til you meet ‘em. They’s good people. Holy Ghost people. So it’s all good.

Tondeleo: I can truly tell the difference in Doc and Marilyn over these past few years. Marilyn has definitely grown up into a woman and Doc is more mellow and civilised, at least to an extent. They’ve cleaned up their bungalow a lot, inside as well as outside. Some of the junk cars are gone now, and his shop/garage is a bit more orderly. It is interesting for me to notice people still growing and changing as they make better choices and different friends, and are offered better opportunities. I have witnessed them going from living in total poverty and playing music on the street corners to now having some semblance of a stable, albeit still very simple life. It is interesting to watch people grow in who they are and find better lives.

But, having said all that, Doc is still pretty scrappy and rough around the edges, and Marilyn is still giggly and funny – but there is a more civilised side that is developing in both of them.

Below is a video clip from one of their Gospel gigs: The third song on here is one of the many that Doc has written.

 

Tondeleo: The conversation about using deer hair as insurance led into another one relating to auto insurance, this one which was a clumsy attempt at insurance fraud by one of Doc and Big Dave’s friends.

Doc: Yeah, Tondy, here’s one for you. A few years ago, Porky Burch got drunk and wrecked his pickup into a tree. He had insurance on it, which surprised me. It was a new truck, at least new for what it was. Probably maybe five years old, It was worth puttin’ insurance on, if you had the money. But anyway, Porky was drunk and didn’t want the cops in on it. I didn’t know all that at the time.

Anyways, he walked over to Duncan Williams’ house, we call him Dunk, and gets Dunk to run him over here. It was about three in the mornin’ at that time. Porky asks me to come and drag his car over here and sit it behind my shop till he could get it fixed.

So I get out my loggin’ chains and we ride over there in my panel truck and we drug it back onto the road, and Marilyn sat behind the wheel to steer it, cause Porky was still drunk, and we drug it home and set it behind my shop. No problem.

Well, he came by and took his stereo and speakers out of it. Then it sat back there for a couple months and one night Porky and Dunk came by. They’d been drinkin’ and said they was takin’ Porky’s truck. They had Dunk’s father-in-law’s truck and a chain. I asked about how come he weren’t getting’ me to fix it and he said he WAS, but he had to take it somewhere first.

Well, what they did was, they towed it about ten miles on that chain, and then pushed it up against a tree, like it had just wrecked into the tree. Porky also put a guitar what he had broke one time when he was drunk and mad, and he put it in the passenger seat, like it had got broke in the accident.

Then, they went to Scott’s Store and used the pay phone out front to call the Sheriff, to report it stolen! Porky said he’d been in Scott’s all evenin’ and when he came out, his truck was gone! He was drunk, but he weren’t drivin’ so the cops let him alone on that one.

He told the cops what it looked like, Tondy, and they started lookin’ for it. About two hours later, one of ‘em found it, smashed into that tree!

Now, Porky figured he’d be able to get some ‘surance money out of it, and then they could bring it to my shop and get me to fix it for about half what he got paid for it! I didn’t know that at the time neither.

But guess what?

Tondeleo: What?

Doc: The cops called a tow truck. Tow truck driver pulled it back from the tree. Then they looked inside, and the keys was in it! Not Porky’s WHOLE key ring, cause he needed his other keys, just his truck keys! His keys were in the ignition, Tondy!

And the radio was missin’, but taken out real neat! And his guitar was in its case in the front seat! The case weren’t tore up! Just the guitar in it was broke up!

Worser than that, where the paint had gotten knocked off when he wrecked it a couple months before, was all rusted! And worser than that, the tree where they had pushed it into, wasn’t even scarred up or hurt! They had just pushed it up against the tree!

The cops figured out right quick what happened.

They went to Porky’s house to tell him they found his truck. Of course, Porky had drunk another couple of beers, thinkin’ about all that insurance money he was gonna get.

All they said was, “Mr. Burch, we found your truck…”

Old Porky’s first words to the cops was, “Did they wreck it real bad? I hope they ain’t stole my radio, it was worth a thousand bucks, which it weren’t, he’d got it on sale at the Wal-Mart. And then he kept sayin’ “How about my guitar? Was it broke up real bad?” and stuff like that.

The cops said it looked like it’s been wrecked a good long time, and that there was no skid marks, no damage to the tree or the guitar case, and whoever took the radio did a real careful job on it.

Porky kept sayin’ it had just been stole, and what was they gonna do to get him his insurance money for his truck, his radio and his guitar and was they gonna get him a rent a car.

Then the cops talked about lockin’ him up for lyin’ and filin a false report and a bunch of other stuff. Dunk said Porky just hung his head and cried like a baby!

I know he got charged with somethin’ on that one. He had to go to court. And he never got the money to fix it, neither! It sat back there in his back yard for a couple years. I ain’t never fixed it. He traded it for a old 4 by 4 that was a piece of junk, but it run good. Now that’s crazy ain’t it? Drinkin’ don’t pay. Not in the long run.

Tondeleo: On the side of the bonnet (in the US, it is called a “hood”) of Doc’s panel van (in the US, it is called a “panel truck”) is signwritten “We do “not” play bluegrass, so do not ask.”

The panel van has been in Doc’s family since his father bought it in the 1950’s. It has been driven and parked for sometimes years at a time, depending on the repairs needed and the amount of money available, for decades.

Doc has recently begun driving it again, and we will definitely interview him to find out the details on this interesting and unusual (and very fast) vehicle. He has put some kind of huge engine in it.

My curiosity was piqued by the phrase about not playing bluegrass music, so do not ask. He has explained to me at times what the difference is between the kind of country music that he and his friends play and bluegrass music. I understand the basics of what he is talking about, but sometimes I must confess that the line is very blurred to me.

I asked Doc if we could talk about bluegrass music just ONE more time, and for him to clarify for me what bluegrass is and isn’t, in his mind, and in the minds of his friends.

Tondeleo: Doc, your truck has written on it, “We do not play bluegrass, so do not ask.” Why is that?

Doc: Because we do not play bluegrass. I don’t want people asking us if we play it.

Tondeleo: But why do you think that people would even ASK you if you play bluegrass? That seems a bit odd, to me…

Doc: I ain’t know, exactly. But like, I can go to a blues club, and when I walk in with my guitar, someone’ll say something about it being a blues club, not a bluegrass club. I have to let them know I ain’t play no bluegrass.

Tondeleo: Could be the way you dress? You don’t DRESS like people would expect a person to dress who plays the blues and the kinds of music you play. You DO look more like you would play bluegrass…

Doc: The way I dress? The way I dress is I get up in the morning and put my clothes on. Then I wear ‘em till I go to bed at night. What is bluegrass about that?

Big Dave: Yeah. If you play blues they expect you to be wearin’ a pork pie hat and sunglasses, like you’re an old man in the 1950’s. Or Hawaiian shirts. We ain’t dress up like that. We aint from Hawaii. We wear the clothes we got on. Mostly work clothes ‘cause we work hard.

Doc: People sees us and thinks they know what kind of music we play by lookin’ at us. Sometimes, people calls us on the phone or reads the side of my truck about us playin’ at festivals, or BBQ’s or pig pickin’s and such, and they ask if we play bluegrass. We don’t. So, I put that on there to stop ‘em afore they get started. That’s been on there a long time, Tondy. A LONG time. What’s new on that truck is my 406 motor.

Now, we play old COUNTRY music, like Hank Sr, Hank Snow, Jimmie Rodgers, Patsy Cline, Webb Pierce and them. But we ain’t play bluegrass.

Mostly with bluegrass, Tondy, it’s not what folks in the mountains is sittin’ around playin’. Bluegrass is more what people what’s moved away from the mountains is sittin’ around playin’. My daddy said there weren’t even such thing as bluegrass till about 1945. He ain’t never heard nothing like that growin’ up and neither did his daddy. He said Bill Monroe come up with bluegrass during the war [WW2].

Big Dave: Mostly people now what plays bluegrass take lessons, and try to learn to play like someone else. If they’re a banjo player, and I know a boy what is one, and they all want to play like someone else. Some of ‘em plays Earl Scruggs style, or Keith style or someone else they is copyin’. Note for note, lick for lick, tryin’ to sound like the record, or what they read in a music book.

Doc: Mountain folks ain’t do that. We ain’t do that, neither. We sing and play what we feel and it might or might not sound like anyone else and we aint tryin’ to. We’re doin’ the best we can to sound like whatever it is we sound like!

I mean, I LIKE how other people plays, but I ain’t copyin’ ‘em. Another thing is this, what is different. When folks what play the kind of stuff we play get together, we all got a part what we do. Like, I play good enough as a solo guitar player, meanin’ just me playin’ guitar. But I ain’t no LEAD guitar player at all. Big Dave is a good lead guitar player.

Here is the difference. I stick to playin’ rhythm guitar, and he sticks to playin’ lead. He plays the solo’s, I don’t. Marilyn sticks to playin’ harp and so forth.

Sometimes I play bass if they need it. But I ain’t play it like it’s a ‘coustic bass. It ain’t. I play like it is, a ‘lectric bass. But I stick to that. No bass solo’s comin’ outta me.

In bluegrass, it ain’t like that. They ALL want to play lead, and you can see ‘em movin’ all over the stage, each one tryin’ to move up to the mike – they ain’t allowed to use electric guitars and banjos and all that, they have to stand in front of a mike – but they all have to take turns at the mike, movin’ up to play a solo and then movin’ back so someone else can play a solo. It is all solo artists, pretty much. The faster they play, the better. We ain’t do that. We pretty much are slow compared to bluegrass. I’m slow compared to myself!

Big Dave: It is all music from the mountains, what we play and what they play,but it is all different. But we don’t play JUST music what comes from the mountains. Matter of fact, I’m sick of mountain music. I got too many bad memories that I wanna forget. You gotta play more than that. Well, WE do.

Doc: Also, bluegrass uses three or four people singin’ at the same time and one of ‘em has that high lonesome sound. We ain’t got that. One person sings mostly, or maybe like me an’ Marilyn, you switch off from each other. You have a lead singer and maybe someone’ll sing a harmony if you need it.

When people talk about old time country music, and they are talkin’ about bluegrass, you know they is from the city. Old time country music would be more like Jimmie Rodgers, the Carters, the Stoneman’s and people like that. What we play got more in common with Jimmie Rodgers, than with Bill Monroe. Jimmie Rodgers is like 20 years afore Bill Monroe.

So we don’t play no bluegrass and don’t ask, Tondy.

Tondeleo: This is a continuation on Doc and Big Dave talking about how they do NOT play bluegrass, and that not all rural Americans even LIKE bluegrass.

Doc: Tondy, like we been sayin’, not all mountain people plays bluegrass or even likes it as much as city people does.

Some of the places we play at when we was growin’ up and where we plays now when we go back down home, don’t allow no bluegrass, no country western and no electric guitars. Some songs ain’t got no instruments. Just sung. Some of the work songs and the sad songs is just sung straight from the heart. I do that sometimes.

This ain’t music for sellin.’ It’s gospel spirituals, work songs, coal minin’ songs and such. But up here, we play more songs what people want to hear. And we ain’t about goin’ out an’ showin’ our shame.

Big Dave: Yeah, we play what we got to play here, and we still draw the line ourselves on what we play. Old country, blues roots, Gospel and things like that. But we don’t do no new country western or bluegrass. Of course, we ain’t no GOOD at bluegrass! We don’t play it! (laughs)

Me and Doc, we like electric guitars and our friends do, because we like to be able to play loud and we like the tone that you get on a tube amp. We like a little distortion, but even that is the music we grew up playin’ with our friends and neighbors. You can play a acoustic guitar into a mike like they do at a lot of the festivals and places we play, but it just sounds like a louder acoustic guitar, which is what they want.

Doc: We like overdrive, Tondy! But we also grew up with fiddles, and I like fiddles if played right, and banjo’s and such. I like a mandolin ok. A banjo with bad tone don’t set well with me. If a banjo aint played right, it sounds like a bunch of bees stingin’ me in the ears.

But a lot of folks down home and in a lot of places ain’t got no electric, so they gotta play music without it. I take my ‘coustic guitar and dobro when I go down there, unless I know I’m goin’ where there is ‘lectric.

Marilyn: I like playin’ harp. That runs in our family for back to my great grand dad and Doc thinks my great great grand dad. I like a dulcimer, too. Doc has one that he strung with guitar strings and plays with a bottleneck slide sometimes.

Another thing what runs deep is dancin.’ My aunt does flatfoot and cloggin’ but I can’t do none of that. I can yodel, and always could, but she cain’t yodel!!! Uncle Doc can yodel, but he don’t do it too much. 

Doc: A lot of the mountain roots music and blues roots is about the same thing. Bein’ broke. Havin’ a mean boss or bad landlord what don’t understand. Bein’ sick. Bein’ cheated on. Your loved one dyin’. Some is about just bein’ sick of this earthly life and wantin’ to just go ahead and go to Heaven. All the songs is about the basic thing about bein’ human and what goes on in your heart in hard times.

A lot of the sound comes from church where it gets blended, black and white folks, singin’ the same songs, and we pick up a little bit from each other, but we don’t copy no one. Most of us, at least my people is Pentecostal, too. Pentecostal folks whether white or black usually got a heart for music and have a bunch of good musicians and singers.

Tondeleo: Isn’t any music that’s made with banjo’s and mandolins by definition, “bluegrass?”

Big Dave: No. There’s differences. Bluegrass is more modern, like for city people that maybe came from the country and were missing home, and bluegrass was a way to sell that sound. I don’t know. I like Dawg Music, which has then same instruments, but isn’t bluegrass and ain’t quite country. David Grisman does it.

Doc: Well, as I see it, mountain music, roots music is more about bein’ music to dance to, more about a steady beat. That’s what we do in everything we do, keep a good beat. Mountain music uses more open tunings, which blues roots does, too. Both uses Open G a lot.

I grew up listenin’ on the radio and on the records when Daddy  could get them, and sometimes live to the Carter Family, the Mainer's, the Stoneman's, the Delmore's and the Blue Sky Boys,the Carter Brothers and folks like them.

I spent some time with Donna Stoneman and know her to be a good Christian and nice person. Her sister Ronnie was on Hee Haw. But all them people ain’t bluegrass. Mountain music and roots, I call it. We like that ok, heck we grew up on it. But we also needed to get away from it when we got out of there and done some travellin’ and didn’t want to be hillbillies.

Big Dave. He’s right, Tondy.

Marilyn: We live in the country and we ain’t got much money, but we ain’t hillbillies.

Tondeleo: As you know, I initially expected rural Americans, especially those from the southern Appalachian region, to all play bluegrass music, ad to only like bluegrass. That is why I was surprised when I first began meeting Doc, Big Dave and their friends, because not only do they not play bluegrass music, but they seem to have an aversion to it.

I have learnt these past few years that some of the aversion is shame. Shame for the poverty they grew up in, shame for being thought of as hillbillies, and shame for the memories that some of the bluegrass music evoked. I had never thought of these factors.

I always thought of bluegrass as happy, simple music that hearkened back to a simpler more honest and good time in simpler and more wholesome environments. But for many people who lived in those times and places the memories are anything but good.

Doc: See, Tondy, to a office boy what has never been down to where we lived, it seems good and happy. Or if someone been away a while. But if you lived there and were dirt poor, and your daddy was a drunk, and your older brothers was drunks, and your grand daddy was a drunk and your uncles was drunks, you ain’t got to many good memories in the first place. ‘Bout nothin.’

You remember fightin’ and hollerin’ and women bein’ hit and ‘bused an’ getting’ your own butt whipped for doin’ nothin’ or for standin’ up to the old man when he was drunk and hittin’ your mama. And they was always bluegrass music bein’ played in the background.

Big Dave: Yeah, and when you go to town people look down on you for how you talk and how you dress and you don’t have any money to buy anything. You get ashamed of what you are and your family and everything you got. when people look at you and spit, and then cuss you, callin’ you a dumb hillbilly, you’re not going to do anything to make them think that even more.

Doc: We was poor, and we worked with other poor whites, poor blacks… anyone what wasn’t getting’ paid good or treated right. With all that pain built up, we needed to get it out, and we played music and sang about it. We wasn’t thinkin’ what KIND of music it was. We just sang what we was feelin’ and about what we was goin’ through.

Some of it was songs we learnt off the radio what was singin’ about how we felt. Some was songs from other people what talked about how we felt. Some was church songs, about the Lord or askin’ the Lord to get us through a hard time.

Some was about how good it felt to be in love. Some was about bein’ cheated on or bein’ brokenhearted. It was all kinds of music. Some Kitty Wells, some Hank Williams, Webb Pierce, Bob Wills, Hank Snow and we listened to Muddy Waters, B.B. King, Blind Lemon Jefferson, Blind Blake, John Lee Hooker. I always liked John Lee Hooker real good.

Big Dave: I like John Lee Hooker real good, too.

Doc: So we played a bit of this, a bit of that. The whites and the blacks, they called themselves coloureds back then, all sang about the same things. Havin’ no money, mean bosses, mean women, cheatin’ women, whiskey, fallin’ in love. Tondy, all people feels them things.

We didn’t never put a name on what we played. Only when I come up north did they call it a name. It was just music what poor people knowed and sang.

Up here, in the 90’s they said what we played was blues. But not real blues, they said it had other names. We said it was “downhome” music. I still call it that.

Big Dave: They call some of it “country roots blues.” We play some of that, on acoustic. I heard that it is called Piedmont Blues, especially what Doc plays when he is playin’ alone at the house. That’s acoustic and they use the thumb for the bass line and the pointy finger for the chords or notes.

But most places if we are playin’ indoors, we use electric guitars and play old blues music that most people like. We play it because we know how and because we like it and they like it too. Blacks and whites. 

Doc: I heard that one before, Big Dave. Piedmont.A man in DC called it that. That is how whites and blacks played guitar down home. It’s how you play when you just sit down and start playin.

I don’t play that way out in public too much ‘cause I think it might sound too much like a poor man. But I do that on my ‘lectric guitars what gots bass strings. Nobody notices it, but it gives me that bass line and the rhythm guitar line and a little lead. When the guitar is set right, that is the best way to play if you come from down where we do.

Big Dave: But Doc is the onliest one I know with the bass set up like he has. It sounds real good, and it gives me somethin’ to play lead over. Makes a full sound.

Doc: When we play Gospel music, it’s the same way. Old downhome songs from when we was kids. We ain’t do nothing new. We do a lot from the Gales…

Big Dave: Their real name is The Sensational Nightingales. I only learned that a few years ago, Doc.

Doc:  We do Gales’ songs. Spirituals. Sister Rosetta Tharpe – Marilyn sings her stuff a lot. Just stuff we grew up on. People like it the first time they hear it, and the old folks love it ‘cause ain’t nobody do it anymore, but us. They see us and still think, “Look at those dumb white hillbillies, but when we start playin’ and the Spirit starts movin’ they are clappin’ and singin’ and stompin’!

Tondeleo: One thing that fascinated me when I first began working around real American rural musicians is that they did not all play bluegrass music. That is the stereotype that we hold of them: blowing on moonshine jugs, playing banjo’s, mandolins, jaw harps, violins and guitars.

When I met Doc and his friends several years ago, they described what they played as “downhome country blues roots.” It is a mix of country, blues and a fair bit of early rock and roll. I was curious as to how this fit in with the stereotype that we have of these people playing nothing but bluegrass.

Following is an interview I had with Doc and Big Dave a couple of years ago.

Doc: Why don’t we play bluegrass? Well, we ain’t got no banjo’s or violins or mandolins first off, Tondy. We got guitars, I got a bass and we got amps. Bluegrass don’t like basses and amps and electric guitars. But we do.

My family was tryin’ to get away from all that when we was comin’ up. People called us hillbillies and my Grand dad said we needed to quit lookin’ and talkin’ like hillbillies or we ain’t never gonna have anything or amount to nothin.’

Big Dave: I don’t like bluegrass. Ain’t nobody told me to. It just reminds me of my old man. He listened to bluegrass all the time. If it wasn’t his friends comin’ by and playin’ it at the house, it was on the radio. It got bad memories for me. It gets on my nerves.

Tondeleo: Bluegrass gets on your nerves? I thought all rural Americans thrived on bluegrass!

Big Dave: Well, you thought wrong, little buddy.

Doc: We don’t play bluegrass. I never learned it. When I was comin’ up I learned from my grand dad and uncles, and their friends. Some was white and some was black. We all learned each other’s songs. But he steered us away from bluegrass.

I been to places where all they play is bluegrass, and I can be playin’ along, and some office boy what took “bluegrass lessons” will watch me a few minutes and then tell me that I am not playin’ “bluegrass chords.” Bluegrass chords? What’s that? I never learnt no bluegrass chords. I ain’t never took lessons.

I learned a lot of what I play from being in the drink houses. That was whites and blacks and mixed people. Just poor people what had problems and still wanted to sing. Mostly they ain’t know what they was playin’ as far as chords go. They just figured out what sounded good.

I ain’t know the names of all the chords. I know more than some people does, as for the names, but not all of them.I just play what I seen other people play an’ I have some what I figured out, and I slide ‘em up and down the neck to make different ones. That’s what mostly I seen comin’ up.

We’d take our guitars and go to the drink house and eat and talk and play music.

Tondeleo: Drink houses. What are drink houses?

Doc: A drink house is what they have a lot of down south, in North Carolina especially. If they ain't a bar in the area where you can go down for a drink or play some music, a person might just open their house up as a drink house.

You can’t just go and hang out in a bar all night if you ain’t drinkin’ and if you’re dirty from work, they ain’t like that too much neither. A drink house is where poor folks go to hang out and talk and drink and relax.

It's just a person’s house, and they might have they livin’ room or back room with a little bar in it, and a few beers in the ‘frigerator, and maybe a few bottles of liquor in the cabinet. You give 'em a couple of bucks and they give you a shot of whiskey or a beer. Maybe even a dollar might get you a sip, if all you got is a dollar. You can just hang out there and talk of play music or whatever you want, as long as you're not causing any trouble.

People in the neighborhood'll come by. Some will pull up in their car and come in just for a drink and leave. Others hang out there all day or evening.It’s a place to hang out, to talk, meet people and swap songs and learn a little by watchin’ what the other guy is doin’ and listenin’ to how he is playin’ and then do it yourself. You can learn a lot that way.

Sometimes they got a radio on, and you can learn some songs that way. That’s where some of the songs we play come from. That and old records we found here and there.

Big Dave: Yeah. I used to go to drink houses when I was in western North Carolina. It was just a cheap place to go and waste some time, and eat a sandwich and play music.

Some of 'ems open just some days or some evenin's and others is open day or night, seven days a week. Some's got a poker game in the back room or out on the picnic table in the back yard in the summer.

Some got a room fixed up where you can play music inside, with a little stage area over in the corner.

Some sell drugs, some don't. Some sell about anything a person could want, if they know you or you is family to a friend of theirs.

I never went for that. I just went for a sandwich, some music and some place to go before going back to my room to sleep.

Doc: You ain’t got to be a drunk or druggie to go to drink houses. I went for the food and music mostly and people what don’t have any money or good clothes got to be able to go someplace, too after work. Where else are we gonna go?

And that’s where we learnt to play and where we learnt the songs we sing. A bit of everything. Hank Williams, Webb Pierce and all them from my grand dad and uncles and they’s friends, and then John Lee Hooker, BB King, Albert King and a bunch of others from the drink houses.

Really, you got to know all of it so you can make a few dollars. We play some places where it is mostly white people and they want that country music what they call roots. So we play it. Some people think we only play country.

Some places we play is like we are the only white folks there. We play blues; John Lee Hooker, Artie White and BB King and all those kinds of songs there. They ain’t never hear us play country.

Sometimes we play where it is mixed and we do mixed music there. A bit of blues, a bit of country. Whatever they want. We play Gospel too, Tondy! We learnt that at church. But also at drink houses and from family. Most poor folks go to church some time in their life, because life is hard and they need help from the Lord. I need help from the Lord.

And me and Marilyn like singin’ and playin’ Gospel music. It reaches down deep inside you.

Tondeleo: I know, I’ve heard you do that, and I quite like it, I do…

Doc: We like that Gospel, Tondy. Not the new stuff. The old stuff. When a man is poor and can’t deal with his problems, he can turn to drinkin’ and drugs, or he can turn to the Lord. I been turnin’ to the Lord when I get down in the mully grubs, and sometimes I can just pick up my guitar and sing a while and I feel all better. We play Gospel around the house a lot. A whole lot.